Chimney ? leak

Users who are viewing this thread

Barry J

Member
Messages
118
Reaction score
0
Points
16
Location
Mass
My chimney goes up thru the middle of my ranch house. I have been having flaking and a yellow stain on the ceiling, right where it joins the chimney. I thought it was the warm air going thru a air leak and causing condensation with the cold air of the chimney. It was better in the summer, but it is starting to get cold again, and is starting to flake again. Last spring I went up in the attic and sealed the metal flashing against the chimney, but the problem comes back.
Now up in the chimney, The rafters go around the chimney, but has a 1-11/2 inch space around the chimney, ..some (half around) has the metal flashing against the chimney, that I sealed. But, the other section, just goes all the way to the cellar.
Since the rafters (wood) does not go all the way around, I think the air is still mixing and causing condensation.
Can I box in the chimney with 2x4s or 2x6s and throw insulation inside, and then seal that up?? Or will that cause more problems.
I am getting frustrated.
I will try to post pics.
Thanks, Barry
 

Attachments

  • inside ceiling.JPG
    inside ceiling.JPG
    84.8 KB · Views: 1,556
  • chimney sealed.JPG
    chimney sealed.JPG
    92.2 KB · Views: 4,506
  • Chimney sealed 2.JPG
    Chimney sealed 2.JPG
    105.1 KB · Views: 2,638

hj

Master Plumber
Messages
33,603
Reaction score
1,042
Points
113
Location
Cave Creek, Arizona
Website
www.terrylove.com
You CANNOT seal the flashing from inside the attic. You have to seal it on TOP of the roof to keep the water from getting in. If you seal it in the attic, all you are doing is making the water find a different spot to leak through.
 

Barry J

Member
Messages
118
Reaction score
0
Points
16
Location
Mass
Yes, I realize that, what I am referring to is inside the attic, sealing around the chimney, not outside
 

DonL

Jack of all trades Master of one
Messages
5,205
Reaction score
72
Points
48
Location
Houston, TX
Is that a Fake Chimney ?

You may have a leak in the Flue Pipe.

Is your Flue Cap good ?

I would not use insulation to seal it. That should not be needed.


Good Luck on your project.
 
Last edited:

Barry J

Member
Messages
118
Reaction score
0
Points
16
Location
Mass
no I was wondering if I added more metal flashing (inside attic), on top of the 2x6 rafters, around the chimney, and then sealing it with that flame retardant (chaulk-like) sealant. That way warm air could not get in contact with the cold attic air and cause condensation. That is what I think is going on. Because in the summer I do not notice it getting worse at all. It stays stable...only when it gets cold out in the attic, do I notice the ceiling flaking...Even with all the rain we got this summer, the flaking did not get worse. So, I am not thinking "leak" as much as condensation. It is an active chimney for my oil fed furnance. It is a chimney that goes up the middle of my house. Inside there is two sides of the chimney that is exposed.
 

DonL

Jack of all trades Master of one
Messages
5,205
Reaction score
72
Points
48
Location
Houston, TX
You should not need to do that.

You may have a rodent coming in to get warm and pissing on it. Just a wild guess.

What are those black turd looking things ?
 

Barry J

Member
Messages
118
Reaction score
0
Points
16
Location
Mass
That is rust on the surface of the metal. The only wet spot on the ceiling is right where that metal strip is.
No rodent piss evident, but thanks for your possible solution
 

Dana

In the trades
Messages
7,889
Reaction score
509
Points
113
Location
01609
It appears that you have a partial air-barrier made of metal flashing where the chimney passes through the attic floor(?), but in the third picture there appears to be a 2" x 10" gap. To stop conditioned space air from convecting into the attic it needs to be a complete 360 degree seal around the entire chimney.

Using spray foam within 2" of the masonry chimney would be a code violation, since it is flammable. If you are going to insulate anywhere around the chimney use rock wool, which has a melting point comparable to that of the brick itself.
 

DonL

Jack of all trades Master of one
Messages
5,205
Reaction score
72
Points
48
Location
Houston, TX
I do not think after the Insulation Dries it is Flammable.

Or is it ?
 

Dana

In the trades
Messages
7,889
Reaction score
509
Points
113
Location
01609
It appears that you have a partial air-barrier made of metal flashing where the chimney passes through the attic floor(?), but in the third picture there appears to be a 2" x 10" gap. To stop conditioned space air from convecting into the attic it needs to be a complete 360 degree seal around the entire chimney.

Using spray foam within 2" of the masonry chimney would be a code violation, since it is flammable. If you are going to insulate anywhere around the chimney use rock wool, which has a melting point comparable to that of the brick itself.
I do not think after the Insulation Dries it is Flammable.

Or is it ?

Almost all can-foam is polyurethane, which burns quite nicely once you torch it off. The kindling temp is on the order of 700-800F, which means it pretty much has to see open flame to get going. At least is doesn't melt and produce a stream of burning liquid the way polystyrene foams do, but (like it's chemical cousin polyisocyanurate) chars in place. They put fire retardents in the foam, but that's an ignition delay, not a permanent prevention.
 

Barry J

Member
Messages
118
Reaction score
0
Points
16
Location
Mass
In the attic, you see the top of the rafters that box out the chinmey in the pictures? Should I put metal flashing around that, connect it to the chinmey and re-seal it with chaulking?. That way it will be sealed all the way around the chimney??
Thanks
Barry
 

Dana

In the trades
Messages
7,889
Reaction score
509
Points
113
Location
01609
In the attic, you see the top of the rafters that box out the chinmey in the pictures? Should I put metal flashing around that, connect it to the chinmey and re-seal it with chaulking?. That way it will be sealed all the way around the chimney??
Thanks
Barry

Yes, use metal flashing sealed to both the masonry AND the framing to make a reliable and fire-proof (= code-legal) air barrier. Seams in the metal flashing can be sealed with a fire-rated fiber reinforced duct-mastic, which can also work for sealing it to the masonry (though it's easier to use a fire-rated caulk or foam to seal it to the masonry.)

Conditioned space air leaking through the gap in the chimney chase brings massive amounts of moisture into the attic. It's important to seal any other penetrations between the conditioned space and attic too, but that looks like a fairly big one. Other big ones tend to be around plumbing-stack chases and electrical penetrations.

Recessed lighting fixtures can also add up to a substantial air leak too. Fixing those can be done with a cardboard box over the top of it with the box seams sealed with housewrap tape, foam-sealing it to the ceiling gypsum (and where the wiring passes). To meet code the box has to have 3" clearance between the box & fixture, but you can then insulate over the box with the same thickness as the rest of the attic insulation. This is often easier to do well with blowing wools or cellulose than with batts, since it's nearly impossible to eliminate gaps & compressions insulating around a box with batts. With squared-off boxes as the cover it's sometimes possible to do OK with high-density fiberglass or rock wool batts trimmed carefully to fit with a bread knife (or purpose-made insulation knife, if you have one.) But fluffing up cellulose with your fingers and heaping it on works just fine too. In MA to meet currrent code-min(R49) you're looking at ~14-15" of insulation over everything, but most homes built before 2010 will have less than that.

It may be worth getting a MassSave audit and hiring an insulation contractor to both air seal & insulate the attic, (which is subsidized to the tune of 75%, up to a max benefit of $2000 per project.)

An oil-fired furnace or boiler (which is it?) really needs a stainless steel flue liner to protect the masonry from deterioration from exhaust condensation. If your oil-burner is vented into a terra-cotta lined chimney it can still be OK as long as the liner isn't oversized for the BTU rating of the burner, which keeps the exhaust velocity up and the surface temp of the terra cotta high enough to avoid condensation. The condensate of oil exhaust is quite acidic, and will attack the mortar joints of the brick first. The mortar in the pictures all looks just fine, it looks like something dripped down it from above, either water condensation or roof leak. It doesn't have the typical appearance of a chimney that has rotted from within by oil exhaust condensate, but it might be just the beginnings of such. If you have flue condensation going on you'll usually see it seeping out of the joints where the vent stack enters the chimney, a brown or black liquid that rusts out the sheet metal fairly quickly, usually long before it's evident in the masonry.

If the boiler/furnace has been swapped out or the burner re-jetted for a lower firing rate it would make exhaust condensation more likely. If it's a hydronic (pumped hot water) boiler set at too low a temperature (the low-limit temp should be 140For higher) or only firing very intermittently, that could result in flue condensation as well. A stainless flue liner is expensive, but would eliminate further structural damage. It's worth inspecting to verify whether it has a stainless liner or not.

It's also possible that you have very porous brick that is soaking up enough rain that it dribbled down inside the chimney and seeping out through other seams, or a cracked/unsealed chimney crown letting bulk water in. If the mortar crown on the chimney is cracked it should be repaired, but if it's all otherwise intact, a silane/silex type masonry sealer application over both the crown & brick facing on the interior could cut the seepage issue down an order of magnitude or two. In snowy MA a stainless steel chimney cap wide & long enough to serve as a rain/snow shed over the entire chimney top is also worth considering, if you don't already have one.

Run through this checklist, which probably covers 90% of all chimney related rain-leakages issues.
 

Barry J

Member
Messages
118
Reaction score
0
Points
16
Location
Mass
Here are some exterior pictures. The aea that is not flashed in the attic, and goes all the way down, is only a small portion. Which is on the opposite side of the trouble spot. The area that is giving me the problem, is th first set of pictures, the one that is labeled "chimney sealed" picture. From the picture, it does not look so bad, but it is really bad on my ceiling of the living room. So, you think if I flash the chimney on top of the rafters, and seal it, all the way around...would it solve my problems.
Also, can you see any obvious problems from the exterior pictures??
Thanks you very much for your previous reply, as I have been thinking, I think it is a condensation problem.
 

Attachments

  • problemsideout.JPG
    problemsideout.JPG
    141.2 KB · Views: 793
  • top.JPG
    top.JPG
    108.7 KB · Views: 1,031
  • top1.JPG
    top1.JPG
    119.3 KB · Views: 881
  • backout.JPG
    backout.JPG
    146.4 KB · Views: 879
  • frontout.JPG
    frontout.JPG
    136.8 KB · Views: 948

Dana

In the trades
Messages
7,889
Reaction score
509
Points
113
Location
01609
Here are some exterior pictures. The aea that is not flashed in the attic, and goes all the way down, is only a small portion. Which is on the opposite side of the trouble spot. The area that is giving me the problem, is th first set of pictures, the one that is labeled "chimney sealed" picture. From the picture, it does not look so bad, but it is really bad on my ceiling of the living room. So, you think if I flash the chimney on top of the rafters, and seal it, all the way around...would it solve my problems.
Also, can you see any obvious problems from the exterior pictures??
Thanks you very much for your previous reply, as I have been thinking, I think it is a condensation problem.

From the exterior pictures it's clear it doesn't have a stainless liner, and whether it's condensing inside the flue or not (probably is), you're getting a TON of condensation on your rain-hat chimney cap, dripping corrosive condensate all over the exterior. This IS a problem, since it's high acidity will eat away the mortar and cause rain leaks through the mortar seams, and will eventually become structurally unsound. If it's all black and sticky like that on the inside of the terra-cotta liner it's possible you have exhaust condensate dribbling through the inside too, a possible cause of the staining.

The oil burner may also be mis-tuned, aggravating the problem. Oil burners need periodic cleaning & adjusting every year or two at most. If it's been more than 2 years, get a burner tech in there to test & tune the thing, and get the combustion efficiency test data in written form.

Also, what are the burner BTU numbers, and what size terra cotta liner (8" x 8"? Bigger?)

A right-sized stainless flue liner with it's own dedicated flue cap will probably do better than the rain-cap you have installed. You'll probably have to replace the chimney crown and re-point the corbel part of the chimney where it's been soaked in acidic condensate before bricks start falling out, but it looks like it can probably wait until the summer. When you do that project, look over any of the other mortar where it's been significantly stained, and pick at it to see just how far gone it really is. If it's just a surface thing scrubbing it out would be sufficient, but it it's crumbly, re-point it.

Furnace or boiler?

How old?

Do you intend to replace it any time soon?

Stainless liners are expensive, and if you're going to be changing up the system it's probably worth figuring out what the replacement will be rather than buy an liner that may be oversized or unnecessary for the replacement system.
 

Barry J

Member
Messages
118
Reaction score
0
Points
16
Location
Mass
I have a two year old System 2000, oil furnance. I have the furnance cleaned every year, The chimney is connected to only the furnance. My Dad has a Oil furnance and he also does not have a stainless flue. My next door neighbor has the same set-up as mine. The stains are only on the inside. I hard an "efficency test" at the same time as the new furnance.
 

Dana

In the trades
Messages
7,889
Reaction score
509
Points
113
Location
01609
The System 2000 is a steel hydronic boiler (and a very GOOD one.) In most of the US "furnace" is specific to ducted hot air furnaces.

Installing an 87%+ efficiency oil boiler without a stainless liner would be a code violation in my state. Back when they were set up to run 80% efficiency flue condensation issues were rare. At 85-86% efficiency it became pretty common, and the 87% or better really DO need a stainless liner in cold climates. The higher the efficiency, the cooler the exhaust temp, which means the likelihood of flue condensation goes way up. With a brand new boiler it's going to be worth springing for a right-sized stainless flue liner, which is MUCH cheaper than rebuilding a masonry chimney(!). Don't ignore this, or you WILL be rebuilding the chimney before the boiler is on it's last legs.

There are a handful different sizes of System 2K, and it's BTU numbers are relevant to the size of the liner/flue cross section. The smallest diameter that works with the BTU rating and chimney height you have is what you're looking for, since that has the highest stack velocity, and least amount of surface area to condense on, which means the liner will come up to temp quickly, minimizing the amount of condensation in the flue.
 

Dana

In the trades
Messages
7,889
Reaction score
509
Points
113
Location
01609
The copious amount of flue condensation you're seeing on the top of this chimney, it's important to take heed of the warnings on page 8 (p9 in PDF pagination) of the System 2K manual:

CHIMNEY VENTING
WARNING:
Masonry chimneys must have a tile or metal liner. The liner must:
1) Extend above the masonry.
2) Have an insulating air gap, isolating the liner fr
om the chimney, allowing for rapid heat-up and draft
establishment.

3) Be sealed at each joint to prevent air infiltration and damage from condensation.


(emphasis mine

Also take note of the mandatory drop-leg for managing scale and condensation. Further down the page:

The metal liner diameter and length should be as recommended by the metal liner manufacturer. Corrugated metal liners should be at least 5" diameter for EK1 and 6" diameter for EK2. Energy Kinetics has 5” for EK1 and 6” for EK2 flexible metal chimney connectors available to be used between the boiler flue collar and the chimney. Call Energy Kinetics for details on metal liners.

This installation is simply screaming out to you to re-commission the venting with the right stuff sooner than later, before the chimney has structural problems or becomes a fire hazard. There is no way that the existing terra cotta liner has the requisite air gap, and it' looks like 9" x 9", which would have 3x the cross sectional area of a 6" round flue liner, 5x the area of a 5" round liner.

The bigger the cross sectional area, the lower the flue velocity, and the longer it takes to bring the liner up to a non-condensing temp during firing. If a 5" liner is acceptable, that would be the PREFERRED liner to use.
 

Barry J

Member
Messages
118
Reaction score
0
Points
16
Location
Mass
You are a great help, thanks for all the research, I have already planned on having a stainless steel flue installed, from what I have been reading in other sources, that is the smartess and easiest thing to do. I have a friend of mine that is a mason coming over tomorrow to take a look. When they drop that stainless tube down, do they do it right inside of the terra cotta liner????
 

Smooky

In the Trades
Messages
2,299
Reaction score
152
Points
63
Location
North Carolina
Last edited:

Barry J

Member
Messages
118
Reaction score
0
Points
16
Location
Mass
I have already planned on having a stainless steel flue installed, from what I have been reading in other sources, that is the smartess and easiest thing to do. I have a friend of mine that is a mason coming over tomorrow to take a look. When they drop that stainless tube down, do they do it right inside of the terra cotta liner????

And would sealer work good, because we had alot of rain yesterday, and some of my inside bricks were wet, will the help with the addition of the liner, or does sealing the outside, just create another problem??
 
Top
Hey, wait a minute.

This is awkward, but...

It looks like you're using an ad blocker. We get it, but (1) terrylove.com can't live without ads, and (2) ad blockers can cause issues with videos and comments. If you'd like to support the site, please allow ads.

If any particular ad is your REASON for blocking ads, please let us know. We might be able to do something about it. Thanks.
I've Disabled AdBlock    No Thanks