Brown water at only one location after softener regen - happened yesterday - happened one other time 2 years ago

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Jim Goodman

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JEG in Raleigh

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I have a mystery I'd like to figure out. I'm on a well with softener and other filtration:
I have the following filtration/treatment on the system:

1. Water softener
2. VIQUA VH410 UV Water Filter for Coliform bacteria
3. Katalox Light backwash filter
4. Hydrogen Peroxide (Neutra Sul) injection system
5. Catalytic carbon backwash filter
6. Whirlpool Item #631984 Model #WHKF-DWHBB cartridge sediment filter

I don't have an iron problem according to several water tests that I have had done by the county over the past 5 years. My latest test showed the iron level at <0.10 mg/l. Still, I add 3/4 cup of citric acid to my brine tank each time I add a bag of salt and I use Diamond Crystals Iron-out pellets. That's the background.

My softener did a regen last night. So, this morning when I got up and went to brush my teeth, I turned on the cold water at my sink in the MBA and brown water was coming out immediately. The water had not been run after the regen until I turned it on at that moment. I ran it for about 1 minute and the brown color dissipated. No brown water out of the hot water (but I would guess the source would be diluted in the water heater). My wife's sink next to mine did the same thing. But, no other sinks in the house did this, including a utility sink that is by far the closest faucet to the water filtration and softener. This has happened 1 other time, about a year ago. I had never happened before that and before this morning, had not happened again. I have Pex A throughout the house. The house is 7 years old. After seeing this and reading on the internet, I took 2 cups of citric acid powder, dissolved it in 1 quart of warm water, poured it in the softener well, and did a manual regen.

But, I really want to know what is going on and also, why I only had brown water in one location. I have not been dissolving my citric acid treatment in warm water when I have been adding salt to my brine tank. I have only been sprinkling 3/4 cup of dry citric acid powder on top of the salt pellets. Do I need to be dissolving the 3/4 cup of citric acid in water and pour it into the brine well each time I add salt to the brine tank? Can anyone knowledgeable give me an explanation, and did my citric acid treatment today likely address the problem? Is there anything else I need to do? I'm also wondering how the brown water ends up right at the faucet so it immediately came out when I turned it on. I would have thought that clear water would have run first and then brown water would come out, but that was not the case. I'm mystified. Thanks
 

WorthFlorida

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I think it is iron that has been removed and a backwash does not totally remove everything. To be sure do get a box of iron remover and do a backwash with only iron remover. Remove the old salt if possible. After a regen of iron remover, run the cold water at the bathtub to flush out the softener. You mat see rusty brown water for several minutes.
 

Reach4

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I have the following filtration/treatment on the system:

1. Water softener
2. VIQUA VH410 UV Water Filter for Coliform bacteria
3. Katalox Light backwash filter
4. Hydrogen Peroxide (Neutra Sul) injection system
5. Catalytic carbon backwash filter
6. Whirlpool Item #631984 Model #WHKF-DWHBB cartridge sediment filter
Not in that order, I hope.

Where is the H2O2 injection inserted?
 

Jim Goodman

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Not in that order, I hope.

Where is the H2O2 injection inserted?
No, that's not the order.

The order is:
1. Katalox Light backwash filter
2. Whirlpool Item #631984 Model #WHKF-DWHBB cartridge sediment filter
3. Hydrogen Peroxide (Neutra Sul) is injected into the pipe immediately before a static mixing tube that is in-line in the piping between the cartridge sediment filter and the catalytic carbon backwash filter.
4. Catalytic carbon backwash filter
5. Water softener
6. VIQUA VH410 UV Water Filter for Coliform bacteria
 
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Jim Goodman

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I think it is iron that has been removed and a backwash does not totally remove everything. To be sure do get a box of iron remover and do a backwash with only iron remover. Remove the old salt if possible. After a regen of iron remover, run the cold water at the bathtub to flush out the softener. You mat see rusty brown water for several minutes.
Thank you, I will give that a try. If I remove the salt from the brine tank and just have water in the brine tank, do you have a suggestion of how much iron remover I should dissolve in the brine tank? I've been using citric acid that I buy in bulk and Pro Products Rust Out's active ingredient is citric acid. I've been dissolving 0.75 cups of citric acid in water and adding it to the brine tank float tube when I add a bag of salt. Should I increase the amount of citric acid I'm dissolving for this cleaning operation that you suggested? Thanks.
 

Reach4

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No, that's not the order.

The order is:
1. Katalox Light backwash filter
2. Whirlpool Item #631984 Model #WHKF-DWHBB cartridge sediment filter
3. Hydrogen Peroxide (Neutra Sul) is injected into the pipe immediately before a static mixing tube that is in-line in the piping between the cartridge sediment filter and the catalytic carbon backwash filter.
4. Catalytic carbon backwash filter
5. Water softener
6. VIQUA VH410 UV Water Filter for Coliform bacteria
1. The injector pump should be a proportional type, and there should be a flow sensor that tells the injection pump how much H2O2 to inject.

2. There should be a 5 micron or finer filter right before a UV. That makes sure there is no particle for the bugs to hide behind.

3. Ideally the H2O2 would be added before the KL. The H2O2 converts ferrous (dissolved) iron into ferric (rust dust). The KL can mechanically filter that out as it is also acting on any residual ferrous iron and more. Even more ideally, there would be a contact tank after the H2O2 injection, but I think that as long as the piping does not collect sediment after the injection, you should be fine.

4, Many positive coliform tests are because the proper sampling procedures were not followed. If you care about the coliform test results, care needs to be taken in sampling. There are variations on suggested sampling techniques, but they have some things in common:

https://www.doh.wa.gov/Portals/1/Documents/Pubs/331-225.pdf
These each describe methods to avoid contaminating the sample.

4. Sanitizing your well is still a good idea. https://terrylove.com/forums/index....izing-extra-attention-to-4-inch-casing.65845/ is my writeup that uses liquid bleach. If you actually had coliform, that will kill it off. Coliform can be introduced during well work.

And in response to your original question, for a maintenance dose you normally layer in the citric acid as you pour the salt. For a big initial treatment, I would add a big dose dissolved in warm water down the brine tube. At the start of the brine draw cycle, monitor the TDS of the drain line. At about 10 minutes in, you should see a big jump in the TDS -- some number of thousands. Put the softener into bypass at that point, to stop the flow. You can let the cycle continue, but the water is just sitting. Maybe a couple hours later, take the softener out of bypass. Do another regen.

For the initial operation, you can skip thru the backwash to speed your time to the brine draw cycle.
 
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WorthFlorida

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Thank you, I will give that a try. If I remove the salt from the brine tank and just have water in the brine tank, do you have a suggestion of how much iron remover I should dissolve in the brine tank? I've been using citric acid that I buy in bulk and Pro Products Rust Out's active ingredient is citric acid. I've been dissolving 0.75 cups of citric acid in water and adding it to the brine tank float tube when I add a bag of salt. Should I increase the amount of citric acid I'm dissolving for this cleaning operation that you suggested? Thanks.
Just follow the instructions on the bottle. About 1/2 cup to a 1/2 gallon of water to dissolve the powder. I suggested to remove the salt so the tank can be cleaned. After a few years sand and grit will pile up on the bottom.

The product you use is nearly the same as Iron Out but with a few more ingredients, therefore a backwash of Iron out is probably not needed.

Pro Products Ingredients: Sodium Hydrosulfite, Citric Acid, Sodium Carbonate, Sodium Metabisulfite, Sodium Sulfite
Iron Out Ingredients: Sodium Metabisulfite And Sodium Hydrosulfite
 

Jim Goodman

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1. The injector pump should be a proportional type, and there should be a flow sensor that tells the injection pump how much H2O2 to inject.

2. There should be a 5 micron or finer filter right before a UV. That makes sure there is no particle for the bugs to hide behind.

3. Ideally the H2O2 would be added before the KL. The H2O2 converts ferrous (dissolved) iron into ferric (rust dust). The KL can mechanically filter that out as it is also acting on any residual ferrous iron and more. Even more ideally, there would be a contact tank after the H2O2 injection, but I think that as long as the piping does not collect sediment after the injection, you should be fine.

4, Many positive coliform tests are because the proper sampling procedures were not followed. If you care about the coliform test results, care needs to be taken in sampling. There are variations on suggested sampling techniques, but they have some things in common:

https://www.doh.wa.gov/Portals/1/Documents/Pubs/331-225.pdf
These each describe methods to avoid contaminating the sample.

4. Sanitizing your well is still a good idea. https://terrylove.com/forums/index....izing-extra-attention-to-4-inch-casing.65845/ is my writeup that uses liquid bleach. If you actually had coliform, that will kill it off. Coliform can be introduced during well work.

And in response to your original question, for a maintenance dose you normally layer in the citric acid as you pour the salt. For a big initial treatment, I would add a big dose dissolved in warm water down the brine tube. At the start of the brine draw cycle, monitor the TDS of the drain line. At about 10 minutes in, you should see a big jump in the TDS -- some number of thousands. Put the softener into bypass at that point, to stop the flow. You can let the cycle continue, but the water is just sitting. Maybe a couple hours later, take the softener out of bypass. Do another regen.

For the initial operation, you can skip thru the backwash to speed your time to the brine draw cycle.

Thank you very much for this great information. The pump is a proportional type, but that feature just did not work properly. The meter has a reed switch and the activation just wasn't consistent. I finally switched the activation of the pump to a flow switch, so now any time water is running, it turns on the pump. I am able to adjust the dosing amount of the pump. I have a timer in between the pump and the flow switch that turns the power to the pump off at night and back on in the morning so it is inactive at night when we are sleeping. The only flow that occurs at night is the backwash cycles and I have those of the filters and softener set to run at night when we are sleeping so they don't consume the H2O2 solution. I have sanitized my well in the past, so I am familiar with the proper routine. I have my county check for coliform annually and have not had a positive result in 4 years now, so I have not sanitized the well in that time period. Thank you for the info on the proper sampling techniques....I will review that info to make sure I'm doing it properly. And thanks for the instructions on the big citric acid purge. I just ordered a TDS meter and will give that process a shot when I get the meter.
 

Jim Goodman

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Just follow the instructions on the bottle. About 1/2 cup to a 1/2 gallon of water to dissolve the powder. I suggested to remove the salt so the tank can be cleaned. After a few years sand and grit will pile up on the bottom.

The product you use is nearly the same as Iron Out but with a few more ingredients, therefore a backwash of Iron out is probably not needed.

Pro Products Ingredients: Sodium Hydrosulfite, Citric Acid, Sodium Carbonate, Sodium Metabisulfite, Sodium Sulfite
Iron Out Ingredients: Sodium Metabisulfite And Sodium Hydrosulfite
Thanks for the info.
 
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