Appreciate advice in replacing 31yr old water softener that's finally starting to go

[atrus5]

Well it nagged at me that the hardness readings I was given varied too much so I bought a Hach kit per your advice/hint.

I went with the HA-77 since it handled hardness 0-30gpg and also measured Iron. I wanted it in a kit since I would probably not use it for myself that much and likely would loan it out to others. Unfortunately, once I received it I noticed that the instructions stated it only handled 0-20gpg despite the listing on Hach's site stating 0-30gpg. I didn't want to have to mess with dilutions but oh well. From what I can tell the chemical supplies are identical to the Hach 5-B and others except that now they use a "pillow" or powder instead of the dropper which MIGHT increase accuracy.

When Company A (30gpg/0-ish Iron) did my test his kit was all eye droppers and no powder or pillow. Also now that I have performed the test I'm not convinced Company A did it correctly or completely. He never mixed while counting drops and when the Red blob (lack of proper mixing) in the bottom turned purplish he stopped at 30 drops calling that the indication. From my testing, the change to blue is very distinctive and unmistakable after it passed from red to "purple" to blue. (For others reading this who might also be unfamiliar - It is VERY DISTINCTIVE.)

My result is disappointing and I believe my hardness to be much higher than any of the previous tests.

1st Test: I diluted my well water with distilled water 50/50 using the lines on the 2 vials to get an equal amount in each and when combined filled the tube to the top. I put it in the mixing "jar" and added the chemicals per instructions, mixing often/completely as instructed. After the 27th drop it turned a distinctive blue indicating a hardness of 54gpg.

2nd Test: I thought I would try my well water straight up (100%). On the 53rd drop it turned a distinctive blue. Hardness of 53gpg.

Iron Test: It came with the discs that allowed for more precise readings as you had indicated above was possible (and which also concerned me about the readings I was being given). Holding it up to the light I kind of thought it was 0ppm but I handed it to my "paint color expert" wife and she said it was 0.3ppm.

So I've put the cart before the horse by buying a test kit at this point. Now I have to determine if new settings are appropriate for my softener and cross my fingers that it is sufficient since it is already installed.

For the Clack WS1 controller I believe I just need to change my "Water Hardness" to about 57gpg. I have it on AUTO for determining Volume Capacity. Is that sufficient? Is there anything else I should consider changing in the settings?

 

[atrus5]

I copied Bannermans's analysis and changed them to my new numbers...

"In addition to 54 gpg actual hardness, to compensate for the capacity consumed to remove 0.30 ppm iron, a further 1.50 gpg (0.30 X 5 gpg) will need to be added. Also, since a single tank softener will be regenerated using hard water and iron, the hardness setting will need to be further increased by 20%, arriving at a total compensated hardness setting of 67 gpg.

For the best balance of efficiency, useable capacity and soft water quality, the usual recommendation will be to regenerate using 8 lbs salt per cubic foot of resin. For a softener equipped with 1.5 ft3 resin (48K grains total capacity), 8 lbs//ft3 equals 12 lbs total salt, which will regenerate 36K grains of useable capacity each cycle. Hardness Reduction Efficiency (= salt efficiency) is then calculated to be (36,000 gr / 12 lbs).= 3,000 grains per lb.

Using an estimated soft water usage of 60 gallons/per person/day, then the estimated daily softening load will equal 67 gpg X 120 gallons = 8040 grains per day.

36K grains / 8040 = 4.5 days capacity - 1-day reserve allowance = 4-5 day estimated regeneration frequency."

 

[Sponsor]

 

[atrus5]

I'm concerned that I will now be regenerating more frequently than every 7 days. Only because that seems to be the target I keep seeing recommended. It sounds like more often is better for water with Iron. Maybe my new system is now undersized? It is larger than what I had for over 30 years - but maybe my water hardness increased in that time.

 

[atrus5]

I guess I'm unclear if I should change my Grains of Capacity which would increase salt usage per regeneration but reduce the frequency of regeneration. I'm not sure which is optimal.

Also, with the easy readout on these new softeners I can perhaps better tailor the 60gallon/person estimate.

Sorry for the chain of posts. Appreciate your recommendations!

 

[Reach4]

For the Clack WS1 controller I believe I just need to change my "Water Hardness" to about 57gpg. I have it on AUTO for determining Volume Capacity. Is that sufficient? Is there anything else I should consider changing in the settings?

There is something called "high hardness compensation" You can Google that, or see http://www.terrylove.com/forums/ind...0-sxt-programming-settings.60651/#post-450189

Treat each ppm of iron as 5 grains of hardness. So 5*.3=1.5 grains of hardness.
Do you add that after the high-hardness compensation or before? Not sure, but I would think after.

 

[atrus5]

Thanks Reach4. Sorry for the multiple posts above. I think I slid one in while you were typing so you did not see it.

That said, I have revised my above calculations (Bannerman's) after reading your link on hardness compensation...

"In addition to 54 gpg actual hardness, to compensate for the capacity consumed to remove 0.30 ppm iron, a further 1.50 gpg (0.30 X 5 gpg) will need to be added. Also, since a single tank softener will be regenerated using hard water and iron, the hardness setting will need to be further increased by 30%, arriving at a total compensated hardness setting of 72 gpg.

For the best balance of efficiency, useable capacity and soft water quality, the usual recommendation will be to regenerate using 8 lbs salt per cubic foot of resin. For a softener equipped with 1.5 ft3 resin (48K grains total capacity), 8 lbs//ft3 equals 12 lbs total salt, which will regenerate 36K grains of useable capacity each cycle. Hardness Reduction Efficiency (= salt efficiency) is then calculated to be (36,000 gr / 12 lbs).= 3,000 grains per lb.

Using an estimated soft water usage of 60 gallons/per person/day, then the estimated daily softening load will equal 72 gpg X 120 gallons = 8640 grains per day.

36K grains / 8640 = 4.2 days capacity - 1-day reserve allowance = 4-5 day estimated regeneration frequency."

It's looking more like the 64k system might have been a better choice IF we had known my hardness was what it actually is. Is a 4 day regeneration a problem? Should I increase the salt usage a bit to reduce frequency?

 

[RetiredInGueydan]

4.2-1=3 day frequency.

 

[Reach4]

It's looking more like the 64k system might have been a better choice IF we had known my hardness was what it actually is. Is a 4 day regeneration a problem? Should I increase the salt usage a bit to reduce frequency?

Maybe.

Normal operation is that each night at 2 AM, if you are in the reserve, the softener regenerates. If not in reserve yet, it checks tomorrow. So if you compute 4.2 days without taking the reserve into account, I think you should get 4 days a little over half of the time. Phantom flow could a bigger deal with your situation. I don't know if the Econominder thinks you are using water when water is expanding into the pressure tank. A pulse-counting electronic meter would think so. But I suspect is is not that way with the econominder.

As to what softener you should have gotten, a "128k" system would have been better. That would be a 16 x 65" tank. Or a dual-tank system, which switches to the other tank once the first tank has been consumed. That can happen even in the middle of the day. That could have two tanks, each with 1 or 1.5 cuft of resin.

Figure your water is expensive, and try to get by on less water. I am not going to say if it's yellow, let it mellow.

You will also be carrying a lot of salt. I hope you can minimize that trip down the basement stairs. If your brine tank was in the heated garage, that would be handy for getting salt to the tank.

 

[Master Plumber Mark]

This thread is giving me a head ache reading all this minutia.....
Why not just get a Clack 48,000 grain water softener and see how it handles the iron ..
Or you could just throw in a Clack iron filter before the Clack softener and then you have covered all the bases
without trying to re-invent the wheel????

Stay away from the auto-trol systems .. the clack has them beat hands down

 

[Reach4]

This is what I would do for the 5600 Econominder. I expect it is the same for Fleck 2500.

ECONOMINDER System info
salt lb/cuft = 8.0 ; A choice ( efficiency vs capacity)
cubic ft resin = 1.50 ; Same as (nominal grains/32,000)
Raw hardness = 55.5 ; including iron etc
Comp factor = 1.28 ; High-hardness compensation factor
H compensated = 70.9 ; Hardness grains after comp factor
Capacity of resin = 36.0 ; capacity in 1000 grains
Gallons total = 507.8 ; Gallons without considering reserve
Estimated gal/day = 120.0 ; 60 gal per person typical calc
Est days/regen = 4.2 ; presuming days each use reserve capacity

Econominder Settings:
LBS.OF SALT = 12.0 ; Brine cam in back, pounds of salt
White Dot gal x100 = 3.9 ; Pull clear x100 wheel to set
White Dot gal x1000 = 0.4 ; Pull clear x1000 wheel to set

If this resin is old, and has been facing 0.3 ppm iron for years, you are overdue for an Iron Out treatment.
==========================================================================
A way to use Iron Out powder to treat your resin periodically to deal with iron. This is not an authoritative procedure, but it should be pretty good.

A softener is not the best way to deal with significant iron, but it can be economical or cash-flow positive.

1.Dissolve 1/2 cup to 1 cup of Iron Out powder into maybe 1 or 2 gallons of warm water.(X1: option -- maybe up the dose) Pour this down the brine tube. Agitate the brine if you can.

2. Let this sit for 2 hours to 2 weeks.

3. Start a regeneration. Usually after backwash, the brine draw cycle starts. Get to brine draw however it happens. Let the brine get drawn until the the brine tank is drawn. Alternatively monitor the drain line with a TDS meter, and look for a big increase in TDS. At that point, stop the flow of water with the bypass valve (or unplug your Econominder). That will let the solution sit in sure contact with the resin.

4. Let the solution sit in the resin for a time. That time might be an hour or might be 12 hours.

5. With an electronic timer, such as 5800SXT, the cycling will continue while the water is off. However since the water is blocked, the solution says in contact with the resin. Then do a full regeneration to get the solution all cleaned out.

You might watch the drain line during the start of the later regen, and see if it is rust colored.

Note: various old posts have tried to describe a procedure, and I have tried to assimilate those. Go ahead and criticize this procedure. Different views can be helpful in tweaking a procedure.
There is not just one right way.

https://www.menards.com/main/grocery-home/cleaners-household-essentials/cleaning-supplies/all-purpose-cleaners/iron-out-reg-rust-stain-remover-152-oz/io10n/p-1444444183163-c-7097.htm

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Iron-Out-Powder-Rust-Stain-Remover-76-oz/17133842 (buy the big 152 ounce size)

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Super-Iron-Out-76-oz-All-Purpose-Cleaner/1076893

Iron Out 76 oz. Rust and Stain Remover IO65N - The Home Depot

Remove rust in laundry, from bumpers, tools, porcelain surfaces, glassware, toilet and flush boxes with this Iron Out Rust and Stain Remover.

www.homedepot.com

https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/super-iron-out

 

[atrus5]

This thread is giving me a head ache reading all this minutia.....
Why not just get a Clack 48,000 grain water softener and see how it handles the iron ..
Or you could just throw in a Clack iron filter before the Clack softener and then you have covered all the bases
without trying to re-invent the wheel????

Stay away from the auto-trol systems .. the clack has them beat hands down

This is what I would do for the 5600 Econominder. I expect it is the same for Fleck 2500.

Oh no! I just reviewed my posts and realize I never clearly stated what system I bought and installed. I only mention the Clack WS1 during installation and setup questions but never completely specified what I installed. I am so very sorry.

I bought and installed the 48k system with Clack WS1 that I was considering in my original post. To see the latest post by Reach4 with all the time and thought knowing it is based on my poor communication makes my heart sink.

And yes - sorry for all the minutia. That's the uncontrollable engineer in me - it IS truly a curse.

 

[atrus5]

Ignorance is bliss. I guess shouldn't have bought a test kit AFTER buying a softener.
I would prefer to find out that I was doing something wrong in my testing and that the in-house techs were correct. Everything would fit together nicely and make more sense. But I can only read the directions so many times and I already repeated the test.

It is very unlikely that my aquifer has more than doubled (21 to 54) in hardness in 30 years. Same well, rural area, not much added development in the area. Online research makes it sound unheard of in my area of Michigan for such a change. I was satisfied with the performance of my 32k-ish system so a 48k should be better if conditions haven't changed. But there were some "red flags" when the in-house tests were performed...

Maybe my original softened water was not as good as I thought and I am shooting for perfection now and need to remember that all I originally wanted was to match the performance I had before my system degraded.

Maybe I need to heed Master Plumber Mark and just use the kit to test how my new system is performing.

 

[Reach4]

Oh no! I just reviewed my posts and realize I never clearly stated what system I bought and installed. I only mention the Clack WS1 during installation and setup questions but never completely specified what I installed. I am so very sorry.

I bought and installed the 48k system with Clack WS1 that I was considering in my original post. To see the latest post by Reach4 with all the time and thought knowing it is based on my poor communication makes my heart sink.

Fortunately I had a spreadsheet that I plugged numbers into, so it was not a lot of work.

It does agree with the earlier analysis.

You can plug the numbers into your Clack valve.

 

[Bannerman]

very unlikely that my aquifer has more than doubled (21 to 54) in hardness in 30 years.

How are you certain the hardness value was 21gpg, 30 years ago? Do you have a lab report specifying 21 gpg, or, are you only comparing the previous softener's hardness setting? If the previous hardness setting, perhaps that setting was lower than it ought to have been and so more of your original softener's capacity was becoming depleted before regeneration was occuring.

The only data the softener's controller measures on its own, is the number of gallons that exit from the outlet fitting. All other settings are those that are programmed for the controller to calculate the number of gallons to be supplied each cycle before regeneration will be necessary.

While some may consider the settings calculations to be minutia, those recommended settings are intended to ensure sufficient hardness reduction without a greater amount of resin capacity becoming depleted than will be regenerated each cycle, while also providing high quality soft water and efficient salt use.

Although the usual recommendation will be to utilize a large enough softener so that regeneration will not be required more than 1X per week while utilizing efficient settings (ie: 8 lbs salt per ft3 resin), there will be no major harm using a smaller softener which will result in the need for more frequent regeneration. While a smaller capacity softener can be programmed to use the same efficient 8 lb/ ft3 salt setting, the reduced useable capacity will however result in less efficient water use since water consumption for regeneration will be greater per year when regenerating every 3-days (~122 cycles/year) vs ~52 cycles/ year for 1X per week frequency.

 

[Master Plumber Mark]

How are you certain the hardness value was 21gpg, 30 years ago? Do you have a lab report specifying 21 gpg, or, are you only comparing the previous softener's hardness setting? If the previous hardness setting, perhaps that setting was lower than it ought to have been and so more of your original softener's capacity was becoming depleted before regeneration was occuring.

The only data the softener's controller measures on its own, is the number of gallons that exit from the outlet fitting. All other settings are those that are programmed for the controller to calculate the number of gallons to be supplied each cycle before regeneration will be necessary.

While some may consider the settings calculations to be minutia, those recommended settings are intended to ensure sufficient hardness reduction without a greater amount of resin capacity becoming depleted than will be regenerated each cycle, while also providing high quality soft water and efficient salt use.

Although the usual recommendation will be to utilize a large enough softener so that regeneration will not be required more than 1X per week while utilizing efficient settings (ie: 8 lbs salt per ft3 resin), there will be no major harm using a smaller softener which will result in the need for more frequent regeneration. While a smaller capacity softener can be programmed to use the same efficient 8 lb/ ft3 salt setting, the reduced useable capacity will however result in less efficient water use since water consumption for regeneration will be greater per year when regenerating every 3-days (~122 cycles/year) vs ~52 cycles/ year for 1X per week frequency.

for the love of god just test the fuc/ing water....

just install a CLACK and let this thread die a honorable death
Install a Clack Iron filter if necessary too........

 

[atrus5]

How are you certain the hardness value was 21gpg, 30 years ago? Do you have a lab report specifying 21 gpg, or, are you only comparing the previous softener's hardness setting?

For the original hardness value I am going by the Invoice for the original system (attached). I was the general contractor and purchased the original system from Company A in 1994. I'm 90% certain it was an in-home test by the Salesman at the time but I don't recall the method.