Another day, another rooter job, and this time an estimate...( long )

[Melissa2007B]

Some of you have seen my posts about this - many times before, unfortunately. But to recap:

We have a "UBC" modular house on a foundation in the west Denver area, since 2005. The builder who installed it, was, in our opinion, HORRIBLE! He was supposed to finish the place in 6 months, but instead, didn't start it for a year, while we had to live in an apartment and pay a construction loan. It turned out that the reason that happened ( when we asked the building department ) was that he didn't want to follow codes and get permits based on them, and he kept getting engineering letters to excuse what he wanted to do, which ALSO involved telling them that HE was the OWNER! So they were just holding up the permits.

One day towards the end, I arrived for a look, and he was coming out of the crawl space, I asked what he was doing and he said he was looking at the plumbing. I asked where the plumber was, and he said he'd "just left". It later turned out that he was likely doing the plumbing and getting a friend of his, in another town, to sign off on it. ( was told this by someone at the building department! ) He also signed the house tag, which didn't require as much inspection back then, because it was a UBC, and because he said he was the owner.When I asked the building department for all the records later, they said, "they couldn't find them - they were lost!"

So anyway, about every 6 to 24 months since then, we've had a clogged up line and have to call a rooter guy. In May of 2018, we had to replace the Y shown here, with the curved around piping, instead. That helped some, as it’s been almost 2 years with it being OK.

But then it happened again last night. I'm in the shower at the west end ( top of the drawing here ) and suddenly BLOOP...BLOOP, in the toilet. From there, a TOTALLY predictable pattern. That toilet clogs, then the one on the east end, and the one in the middle, and by the next AM we have to call rooter guy and hope that we don’t have a floor mess by the time they come. Stress...

So they come over and we figured ( I was so stressed out, with this “pandemic” BS, AND clogged toilets, that I forgot to ASK! ) that a rooter job was $100-$150. But it turned out, when they got here, it’s $350. My jaw dropped. But he tells me it included the camera, and he would totally go over the place and tell me decisively what was going on, and why we’ve had these problems for so long. Ok, well we were in dire need of using the toilets by then, so… But COME ON, I’m essentially paying $200 for an estimate of more work?

Well that was exactly it. He told me everything that I’d heard bits and pieces of before, from other rooter guys, but in one big estimate. There’s some warp due to lack of support hangers, in some of the main line, causing some of it to slope backwards a little, causing stagnant water and waste. Some of it slopes downward at such an angle, that there’s too much velocity, causing TP to stick to the upper parts of the pipes, and eventual clogs ( forgot the term he used ). Oh, and the routing that he showed me, which sounds crazy, like it was done by a crooked builder, or something.

There’s a 2” line apparently coming from the sink at the east ( bottom of dwg ) end, but the 4” line looks like it’s running up the other way, before going back towards the sewer end. ( He THINKS, because there’s still plastic under there. But he HOPES the 2” line isn’t being used for the rub & toilet in that bottom bath. ) THEN, at the very end, there’s a 90 degree downward turn, hitting another 90 degree outward turn, to join the line to the sewer! What?! ( been told something like THIS before too! )

Oh, and the vents are there, but not in very good places, which he'd change by routing the lines properly.

So if everything is true, ( which how the heck would I know? ) and he’s not JUST upselling me, on my own money, he finally breaks the news, that he suggests replacing all the drain plumbing under there, which will take 3 days of us not being able to use it in the daytime, and cost at LEAST $6700. Whoops, cant afford that. But he says that, because of these problems, we only have a 30 day warranty now, on the rooter job for $350.

So the only possible solution ( if he’s telling the truth, and YES we need more estimates, but NOT for $350 each! ) would seem to be to refi the house to pay for this. Our mortgage is around 4.4% and we hear they go for 3% now.

But what a mess. And on top of that, due to the virus Panic, our house has dropped in value by tens of thousands.

But does this sound rational, or like we were charged about $200 more for up-selling us whole new drain plumbing?

OH, and are there any readers here, in the Denver area, who might recommend GOOD, reputable, yet AFFORDABLE plumbing companies to get estimates from, and have work done by? Or is it better to find a good, reputable and affordable lone plumber, and cut out the middle company?

 

[hj]

As soon as he toldl me part of the problem was TOO MUCH pitch, I would have tuned him out and escorted him out of the building. Everything he says should be easily verified by looking inside the crawl space, (and I doubt that much of it is "necessary").

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Melissa2007B]

YOU WOULD HAVE, HJ, because YOU know way more about this, than I. He explained it for a female know-little, I suppose. He said that, because of the extreme slope, the water picks up velocity and doesn't wash the TP out of the top half of the pipes. How would I know? ( except by asking here )

 

[Terry]

I agree with hj.
It would be nice to see pictures to determine where the bad spots are. One picture I saw had no support on the pipes. Those pipes are supposed to be supported every four feet. Normally we grade those at 1/4" per foot and if it's more than that it's okay.
You don't want it flat or going uphill.

 

[Reach4]

When you get the clog snaked successfully, where do they say the clog was? Or where do you think the clog occurs? Under the driveway, or where? You said both toilets start acting up at around the same time, so the the line near the east toilet or under the driveway sounds like a good candidate.

 

[Jadnashua]

FWIW, there is no such thing as too much slope...there are lots of pipes that are vertical, and it doesn't get any steeper than that!

I'm sure that there are some good, reliable people working for that company somewhere in the country, but they do not have that great of a reputation for letting you out of the whole thing without some significant add-ons. They get a lot of national advertising help and the local franchise needs to pay for that, so add-ons are where they can make up some of those costs. OFten, a local, licensed plumber will give you a more reliable result.

 

[Melissa2007B]

When you get the clog snaked successfully, where do they say the clog was? Or where do you think the clog occurs? Under the driveway, or where? You said both toilets start acting up at around the same time, so the the line near the east toilet or under the driveway sounds like a good candidate.

Actually, I know from past experience, that it was under the house.

 

[DIYorBust]

I'd definitely get a few more opinions and try to negotiate before shelling out 6700. However it's not beyond the realm of possibility it could cost that much to fix a lot of plumbing, and there may be carpetry work needed to patch up after.

However if money is tight, why not buy an electric snake and learn how to use it? Yes, it is a tool for grownups, and could hurt your hand if you're not careful, but I think it something you could learn how to do if you need it regularly, and would be better than paying up for constant snakings.

 

[Melissa2007B]

Just wrote this, which I'm planning on messaging them tomorrow. ( They don't allow replies to their emails, so it will have to be done on their site, or by fax, if they allow that:

To Whom It May Concern,

It was interesting having your plumber over today, but I’m finding myself with far more things disturbing me, than satisfying us.

First of all, we weren’t told how much the service call would cost. With all the stress related to this Covid-19 craziness, I forgot to ask. It’s been very depressing, to say the least, and very hard to deal with it, and working despite everything. Then we had to deal with the toilet lines backing up last night, and barely got any sleep because of that.

So your plumber and immediately set about inspecting everything in our crawl space, after I showed him a crude diagram that I had, from past experiences with this same problem. He said that he would do a camera on the line, and I said that we’d had that done before, inconclusively, and the problems had never been resolved, and we couldn’t afford it. He said it was “included”, and I said “Wow!”, and then realized that I needed to ask how much this was costing, because we hadn’t been told before he came out. He said $350! My jaw dropped! In the past, rootering the same line, had cost around $100-$150. But I remembered the other two times that we had it done with a camera, and that had added about $150 to it. But I hadn’t expected it this time, and told him that we couldn’t afford that.

He insisted that it needed to be done, to properly diagnose and fix what was wrong, so it didn’t happen again.

Then he ran the camera into the line under the house, and started a very time consuming inspection down in the crawl space. At some point, I asked if I could get a recording of the camera video, but he said that none was made, that you didn’t make them. That bothered me.

And his time in the crawl space started sounding like his sole purpose was to gather evidence that our entire drain plumbing needed to be replaced. That sounded way more expensive than we could afford. His initial perception was around $6700!

But he kept coming up with item after item as evidence that it just had to be done – that there was no other conclusion or choice. He rooted the blockage out, but didn’t quite explain to me where it was in the line. It sounded like it was caused by the entire drainage system of the house.

He also said that we actually had “too much slope” down to the sewer, and that could increase the velocity of water, and cause TP to stick to the inside top of the pipes, and cause the blockages. But I’ve since had a chance to run this by a couple of professional plumbers who scoffed at the very idea, and told me that there’s no such thing as too much slope, and that some systems have completely vertical drops and work fine. They told me that, that alone should have rang alarm bells.

At the end, I asked him how long the warranty was, for clearing the blockage, and he said that it would be only 30 days, being there were just so many things wrong with the plumbing, that the entire system should be replaced. So I asked for a receipt, but was told that he only had it on his tablet computer and couldn’t print it. But how can we have any warranty, without even getting a receipt in writing? How can we even have an evidence that we paid you? ( Except our credit card bill. )

So then, at the end, he explained to me, how he was giving us the $350 discounted, if we agreed to do the entire plumbing replacement, as well as a $500 “senior discount”, and I think another discount, though I don’t recall now. So I asked him if he could print us the estimate, including everything that was wrong, that he found, and needed to be done. But he said that he couldn’t do that – it had to remain on his tablet, and if I didn’t accept the bid before he left, it would be erased and all the discounts would go away with it. That seemed most unusual, and like a bad business practice – it really bothered me! So what was the total? About $6700! I thought; What?! But what of all those “discounts”? Then he explained that he had forgotten the plumbing in the middle bathroom, and it might be even more than that, but he could go by square footage instead. Alarm bells, given that there was no printed proposal.

So I ultimately had to decline his offer, being we wouldn’t even have a receipt for the $350, only a 30 day verbal warranty, and no written estimate for the proposed replacement of all of our drainage plumbing. It was ringing massive alarm bells with me.

So now, I’m wondering exactly what we got for our $350. A temporary verbal promise that the blockage was cleared and would last a month, but with nothing in writing. No camera video. And he appears to have spent the entire time in the crawl space, building a case for replacing the entire drain system, on our $350. This is just not right, not in any way, shape or form, and it even sounds like it could cost us far more than the $6700, being we had nothing even in writing.

In short, we simply can’t afford it, or to even do “business” this way. And we’re not sure that we even got anything of value, for our $350, being we didn’t even get a receipt, and only had a verbal 30 day promise, which, like his estimate, went away when he left.

 

[DIYorBust]

What are you hoping to get out of this?

 

[Reach4]

Actually, I know from past experience, that it was under the house.

That's it?

 

[Melissa2007B]

Don't know if this might be related, but can TP make a difference with these things? We went for almost 2 years, using Charmin, and then with this Covid-19 thing and the TP hoarding and shortages, we had to switch to Costco brand, about 5 weeks ago. The stuff is thin and cheap and it shreds. Can that clog pipes more easily?

Also just had an idea, and am not sure if this would work, but what if they rifled the insides of these drain pipes, some? Would it create a cyclonic action with the water, and keep them cleaner, or make things worse?

 

[Jadnashua]

The thinner TP should actually help, as it tends to almost dissolve when thoroughly wetted. Things like Charmin tend to stick around for much longer before they do that, so no, the thinner stuff is not the source of your problem.

I'd consider making a complaint to the BBB, but without even a receipt, proving much may be difficult. Don't lose your CC statement!

 

[Melissa2007B]

Things just got even worse:
UPDATED to the company that was here 3 days ago 5-8-2020: While I was taking a shower in my west end bathroom last night, the toilet started going “BLOOP BLOOP...” again, and backed up where it wouldn’t flush. The last time this system was rooted, it lasted almost 2 years. Your visit lasted less than 2 DAYS! When your guy was here, we didn’t recall hearing the rooter machine running, as we know that sound – very distinct, from past experience, So it appears that all he did was poke enough of a hole with the camera cable, to get things barely working again, and then spent 2 hours doing an “estimate” and telling us that we need to replace all the drain plumbing! And charging us $350 for that! We’re FURIOUS NOW!

So now I have to find someone who can affordably help us. Someone here mentioned a list?

NEVER MIND. I found a highly rated ( BBB A+ and Google 4.6 ) company and they came over this afternoon and got it cleared. They ALSO told me that we don't need to replace all the drain plumbing. In FACT they said that we don't need to replace anything! That even that belly that's been mentioned, isn't enough of one to worry about. Hopefully they're not just trying to be heroes, after the other one, but we'll see.

OH, and the first company called about my letter above, apologized, and said they will be refunding our $350. Whew...

Thanks guys. Even when a few of you say unpleasant things here, once in awhile, I take it as constructive criticism, and if it's not, I just don't worry about it. This is a great board with awesome people, and I appreciate you, and than Terry for hosting it!

 

[Melissa2007B]

I agree with hj.
It would be nice to see pictures to determine where the bad spots are. One picture I saw had no support on the pipes. Those pipes are supposed to be supported every four feet. Normally we grade those at 1/4" per foot and if it's more than that it's okay.
You don't want it flat or going uphill.

Thanks Terry, and you're correct. That's an issue that has been reported to me more than once, but that company 2 years ago, said the problem would be resolved by changing that Y. It worked for almost 2 years.