Small hardness leakage for the first 2-5 gallons after regeneration

[Qutrit]

Hello,

I’m observing something really strange: my softener arrives to the end of the regeneration cyclle with no hardness leakage at all (measured at 0 gpg). However after a regeneration cycle, the first 2-5 gallons register 2gpg to fall again to 0 gpg after that remaining as such until end of cycle. Any ideas what could provoke this?
water is municipal service, no iron, regeneration with sodium chloride .

softener is a less than one year old fleck 5800 xtr2, 1ft^3 media. It is set up for fill first. my settings are, salt dosage (7 lbs/ft^3), tank refill refill (18min), pause (120m),draw(70 min), fast rinse (8m) backwash (7min). BLFC is 0.125

thanks so much in advance!

 

[LLigetfa]

During regen, hard water bypasses the softener so any water use during regen will result in hard water entering the plumbing downstream of the softener.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Qutrit]

During regen, hard water bypasses the softener so any water use during regen will result in hard water entering the plumbing downstream of the softener.

If it were that, can that last for something like 2 to 5 gallons after regen? Thanks again!

 

[Reach4]

So lets guess that 2 gallons of water went thru the bypassed softener during regen. Let's presume that .43 gallons of that hard water was retained in the piping, and that 8 to20 GPG water mixes with soft water before your sample point. I could see that resulting in 2 grains of hardness in the sample.

Of course you may not have had a toilet flush and hand wash during regen. If you use no water during the maybe 80 minute window, could you still get the 2 grains thru some mechanism? I don't know what that mechanism would be. But this is pretty immaterial for practical purposes, and I am confident that this is presented as a curiosity.

Pipes and Tubes - Water Content

Water content in steel pipes and copper tubes.

www.engineeringtoolbox.com

 

[LLigetfa]

If it were that, can that last for something like 2 to 5 gallons after regen? Thanks again!

I don't know anything about your piping in so far as what is between the softener and the point of use where you are drawing the sample and if the pressure fluctuates while it is in bypass and/or after it is back in service. Also don't know if you are drawing hot or cold water and if hot, what you have for a heater.

How many GPG is untreated water?

 

[Qutrit]

Untreated water is 34 gpg (very hard indeed). We are talking cold water. The faucet and the softener are not that far away so I would not expect several gallons of water to survive inside those pipes.
thanks so much for helping out with this. I am not sure what can provoke this.

 

[LLigetfa]

Untreated water is 34 gpg (very hard indeed). We are talking cold water. The faucet and the softener are not that far away so I would not expect several gallons of water to survive inside those pipes.

There is a big difference between 34 GPG and 5 GPG, so it is more likely that the water drawn for the test is being diluted so there does not have to be several gallons of 34 GPG water stored in the pipe. Pipe material can stretch and retract so 34 GPG water can collect in a long run of pipe which then reverses and is diluted to 5 GPG when you draw the water for the test.

 

[LLigetfa]

It is set up for fill first. my settings are, salt dosage (7 lbs/ft^3), tank refill refill (18min), pause (120m),draw(70 min), fast rinse (8m) backwash (7min).

I question whether that is typed in the correct order. Surely the last stage would not be a backwash but rather a forward fast rinse and pack?

 

[Qutrit]

I question whether that is typed in the correct order. Surely the last stage would not be a backwash but rather a forward fast rinse and pack?

Yes sorry, the order of the last two steps is reversed. Backwash first and then the fast rinse. This was a typo. The durations are correct. Do they seem good to you?

yes this is a bit of a curiosity since I’m practice it won’t make a difference but I would love to understand what’s going on and where that hardness could be coming from. Both replies are very helpful

 

[Bannerman]

Check to ensure the softener is plumbed in the correct direction with the treated soft water exiting through the left connection (left when facing the control valve from the front).

Since the control valve will automatically bypass flow during regeneration, the softener's inlet and outlet will be joined together so flow during regeneration will continue to flow in the correct direction, but with the plumbing connections reversed, during Service mode, hard water will enter in reverse from below the resin, which will push the hard RR water that continues to remain in the empty Freeboard space above the resin, out to your fixtures directly following each regeneration cycle.

The initial flow will test 0 gpg since that will be soft water remaining in the pipes from before each regeneration cycle, which is soon replaced by the hard water that is exiting from the top of the softener when connected in reverse.

 

[Qutrit]

Check to ensure the softener is plumbed in the correct direction with the treated soft water exiting through the left connection (left when facing the control valve from the front).

Since the control valve will automatically bypass flow during regeneration, the softener's inlet and outlet will be joined together so flow during regeneration will continue to flow in the correct direction, but with the plumbing connections reversed, during Service mode, hard water will enter in reverse from below the resin, which will push the hard RR water that continues to remain in the empty Freeboard space above the resin, out to your fixtures directly following each regeneration cycle.

The initial flow will test 0 gpg since that will be soft water remaining in the pipes from before each regeneration cycle, which is soon replaced by the hard water that is exiting from the top of the softener when connected in reverse.

I just checked this. Yes it looks like the softener is plumbed correctly as per your indication.

 

[Bannerman]

.My comments below, may or may not be relavent to the issue you posted the question about.

Since you are regenerating with sodium chloride, why is 'Brine Fill First' currently programmed?

BFF is normally only utilized when regenerating with Potassium Chloride since brine saturation will vary considerably due to brine temperature. BFF will keep the brine temperature more consistent as the brine will be utilized within a short time after water enters the brine tank.

Since the saturation of sodium chloride will remain fairly consistent over a wide temperature range, Brine Fill Last is usually chosen as that will eliminate the need for the 120 minute Pause, which will greatly reduce the time needed for regeneration.

Because 8 lbs salt will regenerate 24,000 grains Capacity in 1 ft3 resin, and 6 lbs will regenerate 21,000 grains Capacity, your current 7 lb setting should be resulting in approx 22,750 grains Capacity being restored each cycle.

You didn't state the hardness setting currently programmed. Assuming hardness was tested at your location and was found to be actually 34 GPG, then the hardness setting should rightly have been multiplied by 1.2 to compensate for additional capacity that is depleted during regeneration with high hardness water. Utilizing the 1.2 multiplier will arrive at a compensated hardness setting of 41 GPG.

22,750 grains / 41 GPG = 554 gallons soft water available between each regeneration cycle - the Reserve amount (typically 1 day usage).

Estimating 2 ppl, each using 60 gallons soft water per day, your 1 ft3 softener should be regenerating every 3-4 days.

When finding the hardness to be highest, is that sample obtained directly during/following a rapid draw of water? When water is flowing fast through the softener, the water will have less contact time with the resin so there will be greater potential for hardness leakage compared to hardness leakage experienced when the water flow rate is minimal.

If the current hardness setting is 34 which I anticipate will result in a greater amount of capacity to be depleted than will be regenerated, this can also result in greater hardness leakage through the resin bed, particularly when the flow rate is highest through the softener.

 

[Qutrit]

Thanks for all the comments. Regarding the brine fill, I was told by the retailer that it’s better to avoid formation of salt bridges. They configured it like that.

your estimations are good, and the softener does not leak hardness at the very end of the cycle. However, the first 5 gallons right after regeneration have been leaking about 2 GPG for a couple of times (since I’ve been measuring). After those initial 5 gallons it’s all good. I am not sure at all what could be causing this.

Do you think that may be a sign of too short backwash or fast rinse times?

 

[Bannerman]

Do you think that may be a sign of too short backwash or fast rinse times?

The Backwash cycle is to expand and lift the resin media, which will eliminate sediment and debris that entered during the Service cycle (while water is being softened and is flowing to the home's fixtures). During backwash, the resin will be reclassified (circulated) within the tank, which will eliminate flow channels that can form when water continually follows the same path through the resin. The expanded resin will also increase the distance between the resin granules which will permit the brine more complete contact with each granule to more fully restore depleted capacity.

You said the current draw setting is 70 minutes. All of the brine will normally be transferred from the brine tank to the media tank within about 15-minutes, so the remaining Draw time will actually function as a Slow Rinse to continue to push the brine through the resin, and to rinse away the calcium and magnesium that is released from the resin along with the chloride from the brine. Most of the sodium will adhere to the resin, but when the Draw & Slow Rinse setting is insufficient, the water directly following regeneration will typically taste salty initially.

Do you know which injector is installed in your system? The Draw setting is usually 60-minutes so your 70-minute setting implies a smaller injector maybe installed. Perhaps 70-minutes is insufficient to cause the resin to be fully rinsed which maybe causing your hardness test kit to detect higher hardness directly following regeneration until further water use causes the resin to be more thoroughly rinsed.

What is the diameter of the softener's drain line? What is the distance of the drain line run before it discharges into the home's drain system? Does the drain line run downward to drain, or is it routed overhead? Are there any kinks or other restrictions anywhere in the run? If there is any flow restriction in the drain line such as a kink or too small diameter for the run distance, the drain flow maybe reduced and so the resin may not be sufficiently rinsed and may continue to contain some sodium, chloride, calcium and magnesium residue at the end of the regeneration cycle.

The Rapid Rinse cycle purpose is to recompact the resin after regeneration since compacted resin will have little space between granules, and so will allow less opportunity for hardness leakage through the resin bed.

My initial comments addressed the most obvious and common potential reason for the symptoms you experience. As you clarified you checked the plumbing to confirm the softener is not connected in reverse, my additional comments address items that may contribute to your issue.

 

[Qutrit]

Thank you for the thorough post! It is really educational. The injector is 0.125 gpm. The diameter of the drain line is 3/4 of an inch. it goes basically horizontal for about 5-6 ft until be da towards the drain line where it discharges. I have checked and it may be possible that the hose was pressing against the bottom of the first bend of the home drain pipe. It is true that when it discharges it the line does shake violently as if we’re feeling a lot of resistance when it discharges. could this explain the initial hardness leakage that disappears with service usage?