Can I bypass my pressure tank?

[Ameds613]

My water is supplied by a well, and I have a bladder pressure tank and pressure switch set up. I am trying to think of options to avoid or reduce short cycling when using my irrigation or filling up hot tub (large volumes of water). I know they sell a device called a cycle stop valve, which is essentially a shutoff valve with a slow trickle. I'm not crazy about this product because it seems to put a significant amount of back pressure on the plumbing and well pump. Also, it's counterproductive for short water usage.

Here is a diagram of my current set up:

Could I add a ball valve before the pressure tank and a new line that would tie into my outside line? The idea is to turn off water to close the valve to bypass the tank when I need to use a lot of water outdoors. Would this work? The trade off would be that water to the house would be limited to what's stored in the tank until the valve was re-opened.

 

[WorthFlorida]

I'll let Cary explain his invention. Bypassing the pressure tank is a bad idea. What about the pressure switch? When the water is shut off at the tub or an irrigation valve, where will all that pressure go while the pump is still running. It will not be good for the pump.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Bannerman]

Unless the piping from the pump to the hot tub will support 100% of the pump's delivery capacity, then the pressure tank is needed to absorb the flow GPM that is being delivered by the pump, but is restricted from flowing through the hot tub supply line.

With the pressure tank removed from the equation, any flow restriction in the line supplying the hot tub, will have a similar effect as a CSV, that is, reducing pump output to equal the flow rate passing through the supply line. Any such flow restriction, will result in increased pressure in the pipe between the pump and the location of the restriction.

Edit to add:. Your diagram above, would not work in the manner you expect. Without an additional shut-off valve or a check-vale located between the new T connection in the Outside line and the pressure tank, the pressure tank will be backfed from the outside line, and the pressure switch will continue to shut off the pump at the regular cut-out pressure setting.

 

[Reach4]

What are you figuring to accomplish? Your second picture in #1 will work, but the pressure tank (and presumably the pressure switch) still sense the pressure. To do what your words describe would take at least one more valve or a check valve. And if you change your diagram, what would you intend would turn the pump on and off?

 

[Valveman]

Thanks guys! I don't know why some people can't understand that back pressure from a CSV makes motor draw lower amps, run cooler, and last longer? The CSV is also not "counter productive for short water uses". Not only does the CSV with a small tank cause fewer cycles overall, short water uses or not, but can also be used with any size tank. Although, once you understand how the CSV works, you will understand that the large tank is actually "counter productive" to strong pressure.

This scenario is exactly what the CSV was designed to help with over 30 years ago. It is not like the CSV is something new, as it has been solving problems like this since before 1993. There has never been a single pump damaged in anyway by a CSV, as the opposite is true and all those pumps with CSV's have lasted many times longer than normal. There is not one single thing about the CSV that is "counter productive". The CSV is a "disruptive" product though. Which means it makes pumps last longer and use smaller pressure tanks, which is disruptive to the pump industry, but good for the consumer.

You can use a CSV and solve your problems. Or you can try one of the hundreds of things like that ball valve idea that people have tried over the years because they don't understand how beneficial and foolproof the CSV is.

 

[Taylorjm]

Get a new tank. As for irrigation or filling a hot tub or large use of water, you would probably end up draining your tank and the pump running constantly to fulfill the large use of water anyway, so it wouldn't be short cycling unless you have a massive pump and large flow rate that would be more than what your water usage is. A csv will increase the pressure on your line between the well and the csv valve, so if you go that route, make sure the line you have from the well can handle the increased pressure. Since that line probably has never had more than 60psi running through it, when the pressure gets higher, you may discover some leaks to deal with depending on the line and the connections.

 

[Valveman]

A new tank will not solve your problem. Irrigation or filling a pond, pool, or hot tub will cause many many cycles on your pump, no matter the size of tank. That is because rarely is the faucet filling the pool, or the sprinkler zone on the irrigation large enough to use all the water the pump can supply, which is the only way to eliminate cycling unless you have a Cycle Stop Valve. Even then, using max flow from the pump causes the house to see really low pressure while irrigating or filling a pond.

Again, the back pressure created by the CSV is good for the pump/motor as it causes the amps to reduce and the motor to run cooler. Back pressure is also how the CSV eliminates cycling, no matter how you want to use the water. So, the same hose filling a tub or small sprinkler zone that causes destructive cycling without a CSV, actually makes the pump/motor run cooler and makes sure everything in the system has perfectly good strong pressure ALL the time when a CSV is in control.

In 30+ years no one has ever devised a pump control that can make pumps last longer, use smaller pressure tanks, while greatly extending the life of every component in a pump system like a Cycle Stop Valve. There are hundreds of VFD's, tankless control systems, and other devices on the market that try to mimic the performance of a CSV. But some things just cannot be improved upon. If the CSV could be improved upon, I would have another patent. But sadly for me, but good for everyone else, that is not possible.

 

[Taylorjm]

A new tank will not solve your problem. Irrigation or filling a pond, pool, or hot tub will cause many many cycles on your pump, no matter the size of tank. That is because rarely is the faucet filling the pool, or the sprinkler zone on the irrigation large enough to use all the water the pump can supply, which is the only way to eliminate cycling unless you have a Cycle Stop Valve. Even then, using max flow from the pump causes the house to see really low pressure while irrigating or filling a pond.

Again, the back pressure created by the CSV is good for the pump/motor as it causes the amps to reduce and the motor to run cooler. Back pressure is also how the CSV eliminates cycling, no matter how you want to use the water. So, the same hose filling a tub or small sprinkler zone that causes destructive cycling without a CSV, actually makes the pump/motor run cooler and makes sure everything in the system has perfectly good strong pressure ALL the time when a CSV is in control.

In 30+ years no one has ever devised a pump control that can make pumps last longer, use smaller pressure tanks, while greatly extending the life of every component in a pump system like a Cycle Stop Valve. There are hundreds of VFD's, tankless control systems, and other devices on the market that try to mimic the performance of a CSV. But some things just cannot be improved upon. If the CSV could be improved upon, I would have another patent. But sadly or maybe not, that is not possible.

I did not dispute if back pressure was good for the pump or not, I stated that the plumbing from the well to the csv will experience higher than the previous normal pressures. So depending on that pipe construction, you may all the sudden find that some fittings, connections, clamps, etc will leak and need to be repaired after installing a csv. If the line was previously running at 60psi max, and now it's experiencing increased back pressure at over 100psi, the fittings may all the sudden leak. Here we use the black poly pipe from the well to the pressure tank which utilizes worm clamps on a fitting to adapt to pipe thread. Depending what type of poly pipe, it is rated at either 100psi or 160psi for the hdpe pipe.

 

[Valveman]

With a pressure switch working at 40/60 the pump starts at full flow at 40 PSI which causes a pressure spike or water hammer in the system. When the pump shuts off at 60 PSI, the check valve is wide open because the pump was filling the tank at max pump flow, which causes the check valve to slam shut and water hammer happens again. The water hammer that happens when the flow starts and stops so abruptly causes pressure spikes in the line that can be 5-10 times what you see on the gauge. Poly pipe is more forgiving of water hammer than other more rigid type pipes, but it just has lower pressure spikes than say PVC or steel. In other words a regular pressure switch controlled pump working at 40/60 can cause spikes of 300-600 PSI.

The Cycle Stop Valve starts the pump under back pressure and only stops the pump when it is filling the tank at 1 GPM. Starting a pump under pressure is good for the pump and reduces the pressure spike from pump start. The CSV making the pump produce only 1 GPM to fill the tank and be in the 1 GPM position when the pump shuts off, eliminates check valve slam and consequent water hammer. It is much easier on any pipe to see a smooth 150 PSI than many quick 300 PSI pulses.

While I agree you need to make sure you do not have thin wall 100 PSI pipe underground, I find it very rare. Even so, the burst pressure of any pipe is 2-5 times the rated pressure, which is why it can handle the water hammer for as long as it does.

The max back pressure from the pump can only be 150-200 PSI, as that is all the CSV can handle. Even so, a 1/2HP usually makes about 100 PSI max, a 3.4HP maybe 125 PSI, and larger HP pump make even less back pressure as that is the way they work when the flow rate goes up. But if someone puts a pump designed for 600' in a 100' deep well, the back pressure can be a problem. That is also rare, but is why we want to figure back pressure when you order one.

Then again, if the pipe is a problem, you can always put the CSV in or at the well head, which takes all back pressure off the underground line.

 

[Taylorjm]

With a pressure switch working at 40/60 the pump starts at full flow at 40 PSI which causes a pressure spike or water hammer in the system. When the pump shuts off at 60 PSI, the check valve is wide open because the pump was filling the tank at max pump flow, which causes the check valve to slam shut and water hammer happens again. The water hammer that happens when the flow starts and stops so abruptly causes pressure spikes in the line that can be 5-10 times what you see on the gauge. Poly pipe is more forgiving of water hammer than other more rigid type pipes, but it just has lower pressure spikes than say PVC or steel. In other words a regular pressure switch controlled pump working at 40/60 can cause spikes of 300-600 PSI.

The Cycle Stop Valve starts the pump under back pressure and only stops the pump when it is filling the tank at 1 GPM. Starting a pump under pressure is good for the pump and reduces the pressure spike from pump start. The CSV making the pump produce only 1 GPM to fill the tank and be in the 1 GPM position when the pump shuts off, eliminates check valve slam and consequent water hammer. It is much easier on any pipe to see a smooth 150 PSI than many quick 300 PSI pulses.

While I agree you need to make sure you do not have thin wall 100 PSI pipe underground, I find it very rare. Even so, the burst pressure of any pipe is 2-5 times the rated pressure, which is why it can handle the water hammer for as long as it does.

The max back pressure from the pump can only be 150-200 PSI, as that is all the CSV can handle. Even so, a 1/2HP usually makes about 100 PSI max, a 3.4HP maybe 125 PSI, and larger HP pump make even less back pressure as that is the way they work when the flow rate goes up. But if someone puts a pump designed for 600' in a 100' deep well, the back pressure can be a problem. That is also rare, but is why we want to figure back pressure when you order one.

Then again, if the pipe is a problem, you can always put the CSV in or at the well head, which takes all back pressure off the underground line.

You don’t get water hammer because the pressure tank absorbs any shocks and the idea that a pump will produce 300-600psi spikes is really absurd. I’m not going to continue a conversation if you are going to make such outrageous claims.

 

[Valveman]

Well, it would take a long time to explain water hammer. But here is a good place to start.

Water hammer - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

And why would you need a pressure tank to "absorb" water hammer, if there wasn't any water hammer to begin with? Actually, a bladder/diaphragm style pressure tank doesn't do much to absorb water hammer. These tanks are teed onto the mainline, where water hammer flies by at 3,000-8,000 feet per second. The shock wave won't make the right turn to go into the tank. The only thing that really absorbs water hammer is the elasticity of the pipe and friction loss. Softer pipe like poly will swell and absorb some of the pulse. But it only subsides once it has bounced back and forth throughout the entire plumbing system several times. As the shock wave travels back and forth in the piping system, the friction loss finally brings it to a halt. So, the pipe and plumbing always sees the water hammer, even if you don't. It just happens so fast you don't see it. But yes, water hammer causes way more pressure on the system than the pump can even build.

I know some of the things I say sound outrages, but that doesn't make them any less true. I know some of the things I claim sound too good to be true. I thought the same way for a long time. I finally realized the CSV is too good to be true. That is why the pump companies hate me, not because there is anything wrong with the CSV.

There is really no flow rate you can run for any length of time, long or short that can damage your pump when using a CSV. The CSV really does eliminate water hammer and all the destruction that goes with. The CSV really does make pumps last longer and able to use much smaller pressure tanks. Strong constant pressure to the house is just another beneficial side effect of the CSV. Over thirty years ago we thought all it did was stop a pump from cycling on and off, which is why we called it a Cycle Stop Valve. We had no idea it would cause such a problem in the industry that they would spend billons trying to make something that works as well as the CSV, that doesn't shoot their planned obsolescence in the foot.

Pump manufacturers would not have blacklisted the CSV as a disruptive product all those years ago if it would not have been bad for their business. But making pumps last longer and use smaller pressure tanks is not a good thing if you make pumps and tanks.

I don't preach planned obsolescence because I make so much money selling Cycle Stop Valves. I preach about what I have learned because I am angry. I spent over 25 years going to every pump school and factory training day I could find to learn which pumps are best and what is the best way to install them. This factory will tell you their "tri-seal" design is superior because of blah, blah, blah. The next factory will say their Stainless Steel impellers are superior to everyone else's plastic designs, and so on, and so on, and so on. But when offered a real and simple solution to nearly every problem associated with a pump system, they wanted nothing to do with it. After testing Cycle Stop Valves in their own test facilities, people I had done business with for decades would no longer look me in the eyes. It took me several more years to find out they were told the Cycle Stop Valve makes pumps last longer, use smaller pressure tanks, and anyone associated with their company would be terminated immediately for even mentioning one.

Not only was I pissed when I finally discovered what was going on, but my eyes were open to planned obsolescence in everything around me. So, I preach for people to not be sheep and just do what the pump companies says to do. They will spend millions on advertising and hours talking you into something that cost a lot and doesn't last very long, as that is how they make money. They will lie to you about things that make your pump last longer, as that goes against their pocketbook. I was never a conspiracy theorist before. But the pump industry has done such a good job for so long keeping people from knowing the best way to control pumps, that I now have serious doubts about anything else I see a flashy add or government mandate about.

Oh and BTW, I am pretty much retired these days, which is why I have time to do this. So, I am not out to make big bucks talking people into inexpensive CSV's, but rather am trying to give the benefit of my many years of experience.

 

[Taylorjm]

Well, it would take a long time to explain water hammer. But here is a good place to start.

Water hammer - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

And why would you need a pressure tank to "absorb" water hammer, if there wasn't any water hammer to begin with? Actually, a bladder/diaphragm style pressure tank doesn't do much to absorb water hammer. These tanks are teed onto the mainline, where water hammer flies by at 3,000-8,000 feet per second. The shock wave won't make the right turn to go into the tank. The only thing that really absorbs water hammer is the elasticity of the pipe and friction loss. Softer pipe like poly will swell and absorb some of the pulse. But it only subsides once it has bounced back and forth throughout the entire plumbing system several times. As the shock wave travels back and forth in the piping system, the friction loss finally brings it to a halt. So, the pipe and plumbing always sees the water hammer, even if you don't. It just happens so fast you don't see it. But yes, water hammer causes way more pressure on the system than the pump can even build.

I know some of the things I say sound outrages, but that doesn't make them any less true. I know some of the things I claim sound too good to be true. I thought the same way for a long time. I finally realized the CSV is too good to be true. That is why the pump companies hate me, not because there is anything wrong with the CSV.

There is really no flow rate you can run for any length of time, long or short that can damage your pump when using a CSV. The CSV really does eliminate water hammer and all the destruction that goes with. The CSV really does make pumps last longer and able to use much smaller pressure tanks. Strong constant pressure to the house is just another beneficial side effect of the CSV. Over thirty years ago we thought all it did was stop a pump from cycling on and off, which is why we called it a Cycle Stop Valve. We had no idea it would cause such a problem in the industry that they would spend billons trying to make something that works as well as the CSV, that doesn't shoot their planned obsolescence in the foot.

Pump manufacturers would not have blacklisted the CSV as a disruptive product all those years ago if it would not have been bad for their business. But making pumps last longer and use smaller pressure tanks is not a good thing if you make pumps and tanks.

I don't preach planned obsolescence because I make so much money selling Cycle Stop Valves. I preach about what I have learned because I am angry. I spent over 25 years going to every pump school and factory training day I could find to learn which pumps are best and what is the best way to install them. This factory will tell you their "tri-seal" design is superior because of blah, blah, blah. The next factory will say their Stainless Steel impellers are superior to everyone else's plastic designs, and so on, and so on, and so on. But when offered a real and simple solution to nearly every problem associated with a pump system, they wanted nothing to do with it. After testing Cycle Stop Valves in their own test facilities, people I had done business with for decades would no longer look me in the eyes. It took me several more years to find out they were told the Cycle Stop Valve makes pumps last longer, use smaller pressure tanks, and anyone associated with their company would be terminated immediately for even mentioning one.

Not only was I pissed when I finally discovered what was going on, but my eyes were open to planned obsolescence in everything around me. So, I preach for people to not be sheep and just do what the pump companies says to do. They will spend millions on advertising and hours talking you into something that cost a lot and doesn't last very long, as that is how they make money. They will lie to you about things that make your pump last longer, as that goes against their pocketbook. I was never a conspiracy theorist before. But the pump industry has done such a good job for so long keeping people from knowing the best way to control pumps, that I now have serious doubts about anything else I see a flashy add or government mandate about.

Oh and BTW, I am pretty much retired these days, which is why I have time to do this. So, I am not out to make big bucks talking people into inexpensive CSV's, but rather am trying to give the benefit of my many years of experience.

it’s so hard to take anything you say seriously when such a large percentage of your posts are nothing but advertising your personal product. Anyone else I see on the forums will say “if you would like it get more information you can message me” and take it offline, but you keep posting the same sales pitch over and over and it really gets old. So I’m sorry if I didn’t read all of your post when you said you retired. I guess you probably can when you get so much free advertising for your personal company on such a large public forum.

 

[Valveman]

Yeah, I know it is hard to believe that nearly every problem with a pump system is somehow associated with cycling, but it is true. So, when someone mentions a bad bladder tank, failed check valve or pressure switch, having to replace their pump too often, or any of the other many problems caused by cycling, of course I am going to mention the solution. Every once in a while I get someone who thinks I am just trying to get free advertisement. But most people appreciate my help, especially after it solves their problem. I hate to sound like a broken record but I have had the same sales pitch for 30+ years, because the solution to the problems has not changed.

 

[WorthFlorida]

it’s so hard to take anything you say seriously when such a large percentage of your posts are nothing but advertising your personal product. Anyone else I see on the forums will say “if you would like it get more information you can message me” and take it offline, but you keep posting the same sales pitch over and over and it really gets old. So I’m sorry if I didn’t read all of your post when you said you retired. I guess you probably can when you get so much free advertising for your personal company on such a large public forum.

I'm on this forum for 13 years now and I've learned a lot from Cary. There is a lot of pump information on pressure and ft of head that I never knew existed. Cary has taught me this and never did I feel he was using this forum to push his product. As he said, it is a solution that ten of thousands of post where people are looking for answers and solutions.

I worked in telephony for nearly 40 years doing field trouble shooting, support business phone systems and the last twenty years testing software for business phone system. Throw in part time at Sears for 11 years selling lawn and garden, tools, water heaters, pumps, you name it. If there is one thing I have learned and it comes up many times on this forum, there are those who look at to changed something, either electrical, water and even house framing by cutting up floor joist to try to get something to work out of its design envelope. All too often the workaround is dangerous, not up to code or will lead to further problems.