How to diagnose Rain Bird valve problem

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Jag_Man653

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The flow to one of my Rain Bird controlled yard irrigation flow paths continues to flow once it's turned on by the Rain Bird control box. If I disconnect the the wire at the control box, there is no flow. That's what I've done to keep it from running 24-7.

What is the most likely cause? Should I replace the solenoid, the diaphragm of the of the inlet valve, i.e., that the solenoid is mounted on, or the replaceable parts of the outlet valve?
 

Reach4

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It seem to me that if you disconnect the wire at the control box, and the flow stops, the problem would be in the control box.

I don't know the irrigation stuff. Is there maybe a replaceable relay or module that drives that wire?

 

WorthFlorida

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Reach4 is correct that the problem is most likely in the controller. Do you mean this one zone always run while the program is running for all other zones or never shuts off once the program is completed its cycle? Be sure that a zone wire is not on the MV terminal. MV is for a motor start relay (for a pump) or a master valve that is most likely no installed. The MV terminal always has 24v AC while any program is active.

RainBird Models have pluggable modules and one zone of a module can fail as such as your problem. Move the zone wire to a spare zone or swap it with a working zone, then try it out. Another is with a volt meter, you'll read ~24v AC with an active zone, zero volts when not active on each zone.
 

Nick.Unisolv.kc

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Check your COM wire too if running to a ground also maybe tighten or loosen up solenoid or plunger and remove and clean and pu t back. Could be a physical barrier as well like a debris or dirt build up keeping it from shutting off once on.
 

Jag_Man653

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It seem to me that if you disconnect the wire at the control box, and the flow stops, the problem would be in the control box.

I don't know the irrigation stuff. Is there maybe a replaceable relay or module that drives that wire?
It seem to me that if you disconnect the wire at the control box, and the flow stops, the problem would be in the control box.

I don't know the irrigation stuff. Is there maybe a replaceable relay or module that drives that wire?
The way I' looking at it is disconnecting the power to the solenoid should not only cause a properly working controller & valves to STOP the flow but prevent it from coming back on. The fact that it stops the flow seems to indicate that the solenoid is responding correctly. To me, that points the finger at the valves. But today I decided to to check the controller. I reconnected the power going to the troublesome zone valve and put a DVM between ground and that power wire. Then I used the control box to do Manual checks on that zone, set for 2 minutes run time. The DVM jumped to about 0.34 volts, and dropped to 0 after 2 minutes. Seems to me that the controller is working. But I have to hedge on that because the valve did not stay open after the 2 minutes. It is now set to normal operation and I'll keep and eye on it.


The flow to one of my Rain Bird controlled yard irrigation flow paths continues to flow once it's turned on by the Rain Bird control box. If I disconnect the the wire at the control box, there is no flow. That's what I've done to keep it from running 24-7.
Reach4 is correct that the problem is most likely in the controller. Do you mean this one zone always run while the program is running for all other zones or never shuts off once the program is completed its cycle? Be sure that a zone wire is not on the MV terminal. MV is for a motor start relay (for a pump) or a master valve that is most likely no installed. The MV terminal always has 24v AC while any program is active.

RainBird Models have pluggable modules and one zone of a module can fail as such as your problem. Move the zone wire to a spare zone or swap it with a working zone, then try it out. Another is with a volt meter, you'll read ~24v AC with an active zone, zero volts when not active on each zone.

What is the most likely cause? Should I replace the solenoid, the diaphragm of the of the inlet valve, i.e., that the solenoid is mounted on, or the replaceable parts of the outlet valve?
 

WorthFlorida

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We'll try to help as much as possible. It is not anymore complicated that model trains. To be sure it is an issue with one zone, just swap the bad zone with a known good one. If the problem persist for this one zone (at the controller) the problem is the control module. If you have a spare zone, connect this bad zone to a spare wire and reprogram the controller. You can skip zones in the program by setting the time to "off".

Which zone and the Rain Bird model number? Most have modules, soMe do not such as the first three or four zones.

Please answer, Does the zone ever turn off when the program has completed all zones?

If you can, please take a picture of the controller, open the door where the wiring is for a second picture.
 

Jag_Man653

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It's an ESP4 SPTE with 2 SPM 6 modules. Installed in 2016. Some photos are attached.
I fiddled around with it today and took some voltage measurements. It seems to not run endlessly now.
The outlet valve down has some flow, but not endless. Strangely, I get about 0.3 volts rather than 24v on all zones.

terminalBlockGarage.png
OutletValveLeakage.png
ControlModules.png
 

Jag_Man653

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It's an ESP4 SPTE with 2 SPM 6 modules. Installed in 2016. Some photos are attached.
I fiddled around with it today and took some voltage measurements. It seems to not run endlessly now.
The outlet valve down has some flow, but not endless. Strangely, I get about 0.3 volts rather than 24v on all zons.
It's gushing again! As reported yesterday, I set the controller to Automatic and all seemed well. While reading the paper this morning I heard the whining sound which I recognized as water gushing out the hole in the outflow valve (I think that's the proper term). This time I turned the controller to Off rather than disconnecting the wire to that zone. Gushing stopped.

Does this conclusively show the controller, or perhaps the associated Module, has an intermittent fault?

Gushing.jpg
 
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WorthFlorida

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The last pictures does show a leak but not to cause this issue. To measure voltage it is across the WHT wire (common) and the zone wire. With power you should read anywhere from 18-24v AC. Be sure your meter is set for AC voltage ( ~ ).

It is possible that one of the modules is bad. If the problem always occurs on one zone, swap a set of wires and see if the problem stays with the zone number or the valve.

I think what you are calling overflow is really Anti-Siphon (vacuum) breaker part of the zone valve. Below is a Rain Bird brand cutaway.

1657478820971.png
 

Jag_Man653

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The last pictures does show a leak but not to cause this issue. To measure voltage it is across the WHT wire (common) and the zone wire. With power you should read anywhere from 18-24v AC. Be sure your meter is set for AC voltage ( ~ ).

It is possible that one of the modules is bad. If the problem always occurs on one zone, swap a set of wires and see if the problem stays with the zone number or the valve.

I think what you are calling overflow is really Anti-Siphon (vacuum) breaker part of the zone valve. Below is a Rain Bird brand cutaway.

View attachment 84904
Oops. I assumed it was DC. The voltage now shows 26 VAC. I've now switched the the troublesome zone to pin 9 on the 2nd module and verified that it works... i.e., my raised planters are getting watered when zone 9 is tested for 3 minutes manually. Subsequently, I changed the controller back to Auto.
Jumping ahead, if it again gushes out of the Anti-Siphon (vacuum) breaker that will mean the valve is the culprit, right?
 

Jag_Man653

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Oops. I assumed it was DC. The voltage now shows 26 VAC. I've now switched the the troublesome zone to pin 9 on the 2nd module and verified that it works... i.e., my raised planters are getting watered when zone 9 is tested for 3 minutes manually. Subsequently, I changed the controller back to Auto.
Jumping ahead, if it again gushes out of the Anti-Siphon (vacuum) breaker that will mean the valve is the culprit, right?
Gushing out the anti-siphon breaker using connection 9. I'll go ahead and replace the outlet valve diaphragm and hope that fixes it. Unfortunately, the diaphragm kit for this old jar top inlet valve is NLA from Rain Bird.
 

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After more testing I've reached the following state of affairs.
1. Switching the module port the troublesome zone from 8 to 9 has no effect. This indicates either the controller is OK or the module (the one at the right in the photo) is bad.
2. If I use the controller to manually turn on the zone 8 controller it stays on forever, or as long as I care to watch.
3. If I turn solenoid to Off the water gushes out of the anti siphon port. If I open it flow continues, the water is delivered to the drip zone ... drip or micro spray heads in my raised planter boxes.
4. If the controller output wire to the zone is disconnected the flow does not run forever. I explain this behavior like this: Turning yjr flow off by rotating the solenoid to the Off position Stops the flow and it doesn't turn On again because the wire is disconnected.
5. I unscrewed the jar cap at the outlet valve. I couldn't see anything except a little calcium deposits.
6. It turns out that the Kits I bought from Rain Bird, part # B36330 (KIT CPJTV-Diaphragm replacement) is for the INLET valve, whereas I was led to believe they were for the outlet valve. Diabolically, I have not been able to unscrew the jar cap on that valve! I can get a grip on it with my water pump pliers but couldn't budge it. It would be difficult to get a big pipe wrench on it, and even if I did I'd be afraid of breaking the body of the valve.

Any suggestions?
 

WorthFlorida

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The water gushing out after the zone is turned off means that the anti-syphon is doing its job but it should only last a few seconds.

Voltage at the controller for zone 8 is still in question. With the zone wire removed, activate the zone manually and you'll read 24vac. Turn off that zone and the voltage should be zero. If it is not zero then the module is bad. If voltage it zero then the valve is bad. Just replaced the unit, they are not that expensive if you know how to change one out.

The looks of it the pipes from the ground may have been repaired before. I would dig down a bit and cut the pipe below all the fittings. The with a few couplers extend the pipe with new PVC and either cement or thread the pipe into the new valve assembly. Or call on an irrigation company to do the repairs. They'll usually have the parts and maybe an hour for labor.

Does this mean the sprinklers are shooting water or water is gushing out of the vacuum breaker?
2. "If I use the controller to manually turn on the zone 8 controller it stays on forever, or as long as I care to watch."



Installation Notes
******Anti-siphon unit must be installed at least 6" (15,2 cm) above the highest point of water in the pipe and sprinklers it serves.
 

Jag_Man653

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The water gushing out after the zone is turned off means that the anti-syphon is doing its job but it should only last a few seconds.

Voltage at the controller for zone 8 is still in question. With the zone wire removed, activate the zone manually and you'll read 24vac. Turn off that zone and the voltage should be zero. If it is not zero then the module is bad. If voltage it zero then the valve is bad. Just replaced the unit, they are not that expensive if you know how to change one out.

The looks of it the pipes from the ground may have been repaired before. I would dig down a bit and cut the pipe below all the fittings. The with a few couplers extend the pipe with new PVC and either cement or thread the pipe into the new valve assembly. Or call on an irrigation company to do the repairs. They'll usually have the parts and maybe an hour for labor.

Does this mean the sprinklers are shooting water or water is gushing out of the vacuum breaker?
2. "If I use the controller to manually turn on the zone 8 controller it stays on forever, or as long as I care to watch."



Installation Notes
******Anti-siphon unit must be installed at least 6" (15,2 cm) above the highest point of water in the pipe and sprinklers it serves.
Thanks. Here are answers to your questions:
Definitely lasts longer than a few seconds. Whether it gushes out the vacuum breaker depends on how the solenoid valve is set. If I turn solenoid to Off the water gushes out of the anti siphon port. If I open it flow continues, the water is delivered to the drip zone ... drip or micro spray heads in my raised planter boxes.

Voltage is 26 VAC if On, or 0 VCA if off.

Yes, I've repaired the the underground plumbing a number of times. Most recently, I changed how water to the raised planter immediately adjacent to the valves is plumbed. Originally, the pipe went under the box and emerged above the box soil inside the box. I got tired of having to shovel soil out of the box to fix leaks I decided to route the pipe up from outside the box. Since it had to go above the top edge of the box, the water now has to go perhaps 6" higher than before. See photo. Your note regarding location of the vacuum breaker suggests this might be critical, since the high point is now 8 inches above what was before this change far above where it should be according to the Rain Bird recommendation (if I'm understanding it correctly. That is the vacuum breaker is below ground level and therefore a couple feet lower than should it should be. IOW, I'm now thinking the change I made by repiping the was the straw that broke the camel's back. BTW, the other 2 planters are about 60 feet away from the one near the valves. As you can see, distribution head in those planters are down below the rim of the box like planter 1 used to be.

So the question now is where to put the vacuum breaker. To follow the RB recommendation it should perhaps be mounted in the horizontal pipe feeding the distribution head in Planter 1.

But there's another question in my mind. The RB recommendation is obviously to prevent back flow into the upstream water, i., household water. But, I'm wondering if this change would at the same time worsen the run-on condition that is most troubling to me.

Your thoughts?


As I said earlier,
 

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Breplum

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To deal with the anti siphon valve being too low, you can raise that valve up to proper height where it is, just couplings and pipe (and I always have threaded unions at every valve to make inevitable replacement easy)
 

Jag_Man653

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Thx. The contractor that did this work a few years back put an ASV at about ground level in every one of those zones. Also, he put them so close together that they are very difficult to repair or replace. I've toyed with idea of having someone rebuild the whole thing. I saw a YouTube of a guy who put an elbow on the supply line ( which is below ground) and brought the supply up to 2 feet or so above ground. That way all the supply connections and ASVs are above ground. Only the outlet connections to buried pipes to the various drip irrigation points are underground . Very easy to work with.
 
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