10 year old well suddenly Cloudy

[H2o]

I would highly suggest a camera inspection be done to the well. You would be surpised as to what you see. A simple seal may solve your issue.

H2o

[Gary Slusser]

In his first post he says he already had one done, check it out.

[H2o]

He should know where the surface water is coming in if he did in fact do a camera inspection. If it can be viewed with a camera, it can be resolved with a seal. Gravel packing a well and installing a well screen to filter surface water does not remove any surface water contaminants that can cause health problems. Any well that is producing surface water is a potential health hazard and should be dealt with in a professional manner.

H2o

[Wally Hays]

Is that a fairly common problem down south? We don't get much of that up here with the exception of the occasional sediment problem. They require steel caseing grouted to the bedrock.

[Gary Slusser]

Originally Posted by H2o

He should know where the surface water is coming in if he did in fact do a camera inspection. If it can be viewed with a camera, it can be resolved with a seal. Gravel packing a well and installing a well screen to filter surface water does not remove any surface water contaminants that can cause health problems. Any well that is producing surface water is a potential health hazard and should be dealt with in a professional manner.

H2o

You can read his post where he talks about the camera inspection and what if anything was found, and IIRC, what was proposed he do.

Actually all wells regardless of their construction, have the potential for contamination. You can not make a well contaminate free.

Truth be known, the only way to insure no contaminants is to treat the water with water treatment equipment; just like a city water company does for their wells or surface water sources.

[H2o]

If the proper steps are taken, wells can be constructed to be free of harmful contaminants. That is why most states require that wells be constructed by licensed professonals that have the right experience.

The earth acts as a filter for most contaminants. If a well is not constructed properly it can be an open conduit for contaminants to enter the aquifer. if the anular space around the well casing is not sealed right, or if the casing of the well has been compromised, then any surface contaminant can enter the aquifer directly and cause a health hazard.

If someone can guarantee that their water treatment system can remove any possible contaminant that can enter a well because of surface water intrusion, i would like to see that system and the price tag.

H2o

[Gary Slusser]

Originally Posted by H2o

If the proper steps are taken, wells can be constructed to be free of harmful contaminants. That is why most states require that wells be constructed by licensed professonals that have the right experience.

I disagree. I say proper construction prevents surface water from getting into the well around the casing. It has nothing to do with the quality of the ground water the well taps into.

Licensing only insures that the government makes money off of drillers because I have never heard of any government inspection or on site supervision while a residential well is being drilled.

Originally Posted by H2o

The earth acts as a filter for most contaminants.

That was a widely accepted belief up to like 25 yrs ago but then we found out that everything poured on or buried in the ground eventually finds its way into the groundwater somewhere.

Originally Posted by H2o

If someone can guarantee that their water treatment system can remove any possible contaminant that can enter a well because of surface water intrusion, i would like to see that system and the price tag.

Super fund sites are cleaned up with specialty water treatment equipment and commonly found groundwater contaminates can be removed and/or reduced by various types of water treatment equipment.

If you disagree, name a few contaminates that you believe can't be removed or reduced using common and readily available water treatment equipment.

As to the price tag, normally not more than 'fixing' a well or drilling a new one. Especially when we realize that a new well does not come with any water quality or volume of water guarantees.

[H2o]

You seem to be twisting and turning this subject a lot and you may be confusing people in the process.

Lets put it this way..lets say that above the aquifer there was no earth material at all and there was a pipe with a well screen inserted 10 feet into the aquifer. Someone dumps some paint 5 feet of that pipe. What do you have then?? A contaminated well. Now if that aquifer had 50 feet of earth material above it, that paint would have been trapped by the sediments it comes in contact with.

You said it yourself, "I say proper construction prevents surface water from getting into the well around the casing." And that is what we are talking about here. SURFACE WATER has not passed through the earth. By the time surface water or rain water reaches an aquifer it virtually free of harmful contaminants.

I guess the government just wants our money?? I pay less than 100.00 dollars a year for my license. The license is there so joe blow isn't driving a well into his leaching field and getting his family sick.

H2o

"When Water Talks People Listen"

[Gary Slusser]

Originally Posted by H2o

You seem to be twisting and turning this subject a lot and you may be confusing people in the process.

Lets put it this way..lets say that above the aquifer there was no earth material at all and there was a pipe with a well screen inserted 10 feet into the aquifer. Someone dumps some paint 5 feet of that pipe. What do you have then?? A contaminated well. Now if that aquifer had 50 feet of earth material above it, that paint would have been trapped by the sediments it comes in contact with.

Water is known as the universal solvent.

Solvent means capable of dissolving things. Given sufficient time, water will dissolve almost everything.

Pour a gallon of paint in a 5 gal bucket and then fill the bucket with water and see what happens. If the paint is latex, it will be dissolved into the water. If oil based the water will have an oily film on it and the paint will be useless.

Oil is a contaminate. Oil and other petroleum products contaminate not only water but soils. Add water to contaminated soils and you end up with contaminated groundwater.

Rain and snow melt water percolates down through the earth until it reaches the water table, which is the high point of the groundwater in that immediate area.

Anyone that thinks that water will not break down (dissolve) paint "filtered" by dirt/earth is very uninformed. Paint is made up of many separate chemicals and minerals. Water will separate them, dissolving some and taking them all with it down into the groundwater sooner or later; no matter if there is 50' or thousands of feet of dirt/earth above the water table.

Most any highschrool kid should know that, it's 2009. And you are a licensed well driller and don't believe it!

Originally Posted by H2o

SURFACE WATER has not passed through the earth. By the time surface water or rain water reaches an aquifer it virtually free of harmful contaminants.

Come on man! How do you explain a super fund site with contaminated ground water for miles around it in all directions that the groundwater can travel, caused by once PAINTED rusted (metal) barrels of buried chemicals?

Explain how pesticides and fertilizers contaminate groundwater and the contaminates are then found in water wells? I suspect you mistakenly think ALL contaminated wells are not constructed correctly.

So explain why test wells are used to find contaminated groundwater, are they too not constructed correctly?

The reason surface water hasn't passed through the earth is due to the heat of the earth eventually turning the water into steam before it can come up to the surface on the other side of the planet. You do know that the core of the earth is very high temp molten rock don't you?

Originally Posted by H2o

I guess the government just wants our money?? I pay less than 100.00 dollars a year for my license. The license is there so joe blow isn't driving a well into his leaching field and getting his family sick.

H2o

Yes it's about the money for the government because it's very obvious that you are proving that the licensing process isn't meant to educate drillers about the facts of how groundwater becomes contaminated.

BTW, being anonymous so people can't know who you are is a good thing for your business.

[H2o]

Gary,
you use Superfund sights as an example but wells for drinking purposes are not installed around these sights for obvious reasons. Superfund sights are loaded with contaminated soils and groundwater. You try to make me sound like an idiot but you are taking this whole thing to another level and out of context of the actual issue. Of course if you keep dumping a contaminant into the ground on a regular basis it will eventually reach the aquifer. The ground can only hold back so much. Any contaminant in the ground can eventually make its way to the aquifer depending on the contaminant and the amount that is being dumped but small amounts can be held back by the soil in the ground where most of the contaminate can break down before it reaches groundwater. But if these small amounts are not held back and are directly carried into a well by surface water runoff into a poorly constructed well, then you have a problem. I have wells that are smack dab in the middle of peoples lawns that are fertilized on a regular basis and zero nitrates show up in the water samples. It's because the ground holds it back so the roots have time to absorb it. Now if you were to keep dumping fertilizer on nothing but dirt, well i guess we all know what will eventually happen.

What i am trying to get across is that if a well isn't designed properly surface water contaminants can directly pollute a well by run off.

I find your comments about water well professionals to be very rude. It seems as though if someone has come up with an alternative to water treatment you get very aggravated and mad.

I am not here to promote anything but safe drinking water standards and to advise people on their well water. I am not selling anything so why would i need a link to a website or my name.

H2o

"When Water Talks People Listen"

[Gary Slusser]

Originally Posted by H2o

Gary,
you use Superfund sights as an example but wells for drinking purposes are not installed around these sights for obvious reasons.

I used that example to show you that contaminates go right through earth/dirt into the groundwater. And now you say it can't happen with small amounts because they "break down". The EPA, all states and me say you're wrong that small amounts don't get to groundwater but...

What do they break down to and where do those things go if not down into the groundwater as soon as it rains and water that is percolating down through the earth finds them?

And wells are installed outside the area of contamination super fund sites. The problem is that plumes of contaminates contimue to migrate until the site is cleaned up, including the groundwater plumes (as you know).

Originally Posted by H2o

You try to make me sound like an idiot...

You are the one saying the earth/dirt is a good filter, I'm pointing out the fallacy in that thinking. And you're digging yourself a deeper hole by continuing to talk about that now by splitting hairs as to how much contaminate, for how long, and how close to the well etc., and blaming me for how you sound!!!

Question for you. How far away from a correctly constructed well can someone pour a couple gallons of contaminate like gasoline or oil on the ground and not have it contaminate the well? Is two gals too much to be thought of as "a small amount"? Define by volume a "small amount".

Originally Posted by H2o

I find your comments about water well professionals to be very rude.

Please copy/paste those comments in a reply.

Originally Posted by H2o

I am not here to promote anything but safe drinking water standards and to advise people on their well water. I am not selling anything so why would i need a link to a website or my name.

Then YOU should want to be accurate beyond any doubt. I'm doing my best to help you obtain that accuracy.

I didn't suggest or mention you having a web site, I said it was good for your business for you to remain anonymous. That was so people wouldn't know who was making such statements about the earth being a good filter of contaminates.

[Peter Griffin]

Does anyone remember what the original post was?

I think H2O's point was that if the well case is not properly sealed to the bedrock then contaminates carried by surface water can run down beside the case and quickly enter the well. Though I have seen this situation happen before, cloudy water was not what showed up, coliform bacteria was. There are countless studies done by the EPA regarding ground water pollution form various sources. Though under ideal conditions it is thought that 10' of clean sand is capable of filtering most pollutants, if the sand is continually subjected to those same pollutants it will eventually become saturated to the point where the pollutants will be carried into the aquifer. So the question as to how much gasoline can be dumped and how far from the well would depend on a lot of variables such as soil type, saturation level, proximity to the well case as well as the depth of the aquifer.

[Gary Slusser]

No mechanical filter media (other than carbon), sand, soil etc, is going to filter chemicals if water is going down through it to the groundwater. And if you think about it, sand and gravel wells that are constructed correctly still come up contaminated. So do sand point wells.

[H2o]

Peter,
thanks for seeing the simplicity in my point.

Gary,
i don't think i will continue with you because you seem to be very one sided. I can't believe that a person being in the water treatment trade makes the comment that the earth is not a good filter. Maybe you didn't know that clay is an anion and is also very impermeable. There are layers of clay in the ground that trap contaminants and keep them reaching the ground water, just like bentonite and cement grout which is used to seal wells. If held back by something like sand or clay a lot of cantaminants can simply evaporate into the air just like water does. Isn't sand an excellent filter media?? You seem to be very edgy and impulsive. You make these rude comments about well drillers but you probably have never drilled a water well in your life so how is it that you can comment about how a well should be drilled or sealed? My big question is, how come you seem to be involved in all these arguments with people??? It looks like this thread turned into crap as soon as someone suggested something other than your water treatment.

H2o

[Peter Griffin]

From my perspective, people are what they are. You take things with a grain of salt and a little understanding. Gary is Gary. He is also a wealth of knowledge and someone I would trust to shoot straight when it comes to water treatment. some of his plumbing advice I might find a bit dubious but when it comes to water treatment, he knows his stuff. Why does everything have to turn into a chest beating Viking Fest? the thing about public forums is that sometimes you get good advice and sometimes you don't and anyone with an opinion is free to post. I think we have already lost enough good members here to these issues. Let's all put it to rest and save the condemnations for private messages.

[Gary Slusser]

Originally Posted by H2o

Peter,
thanks for seeing the simplicity in my point.

I see the simplicity also. Simply put, you're wrong about the earth being a good filter but... The Yankees just won the World Series and many people dislike them, including me since the mid 1950s. But they sure can play baseball. I dislike them because I've always thought their success is mostly (or was) based on them having the most money to buy the best players. And I've always been for the under dog anyway. I have a feeling that you like the Red Sox. Anyway, I am just a simple guy that many people here don't like, and they do their best to beat up on me. But kinda like the Yankees, I sure can play ball with'em and usually they aren't good sports when we're done playing the games they start.

Originally Posted by H2o

Gary,
i don't think i will continue with you because you seem to be very one sided. I can't believe that a person being in the water treatment trade makes the comment that the earth is not a good filter. Maybe you didn't know that clay is an anion and is also very impermeable. There are layers of clay in the ground that trap contaminants and keep them reaching the ground water, just like bentonite and cement grout which is used to seal wells. If held back by something like sand or clay a lot of cantaminants can simply evaporate into the air just like water does. Isn't sand an excellent filter media??

One sided, yes you're right, I am one sided. I'm on the side of correct information being given to the members here.

I figured you'd get into confined aquifers sooner or later, and here you are into it but, a confining layer is not the same thing as "the earth is a good filter". But tell me, groundwater above a confining layer like clay, how does that water get contaminated?

Clay being an anion, what does that have to do with this? What does caly have t odo with your comment and debate that the earth is a good filter? I say it is a diversion because you didn't answer the questions about the distance from a well and how much of the contaminant wouldn't contaminate a nearby well.

Yes sand is a great particulate filter as long as the particles are large enough to be filtered out by the sand being used. Meaning that all other smaller particles will go right through it but, it does not filter petroleum or petroleum products or any chemicals. And if you think I'm wrong, do some research and prove me wrong.

Originally Posted by H2o

You seem to be very edgy and impulsive. You make these rude comments about well drillers but you probably have never drilled a water well in your life so how is it that you can comment about how a well should be drilled or sealed?

I can't prove it but I'm sitting here smiling and actually laughing every once in awhile. Like above when I see you going into confined aquifers without mentioning the words. We had that discussion a few months ago. Also, maybe you can tell, I love a good debate. This debate isn't about me drilling wells or if I have ever drilled one, it's about your totally incorrect comment that the earth is a good filter.

I can't find any rude remarks that I've made in any of my replies in this thread, please copy/paste them in a reply. And since I know you can't find any, why the lies? You must mistakenly think that others will believe them. That claim got a guy banned from here a while back. Lies did in another. Personal attacks did in others.

Originally Posted by H2o

My big question is, how come you seem to be involved in all these arguments with people??? It looks like this thread turned into crap as soon as someone suggested something other than your water treatment.

Well of course it looks like that to you and I'm giving you what you wanted. And don't Pelosi me, how's it going for you so far?

If ya want, next we can get into Coliform bacteria contamination and you can tell me how good a filter the earth is and that if the well is constructed correctly there won't be no Coliform in your wells on'n on. And I'll tell you the source can be any distance from the well, miles actually, and the construction of the well makes no difference as long as teh bacteria are viable when they arrive in the groundwater in the well's recovery area, or the well's wellhead protection area.

[sjsmithjr]

Originally Posted by Gary Slusser

A true statement; Any contaminate from A to Z (Arsenic to Zinc and anything in between) can be removed or reduced to below harmful levels by common residential water treatment equipment.

Are you including inorganic, organic, and biological contaminants at any concentration under any possible hydrogeologic condition in that statement?

[Gary Slusser]

Originally Posted by sjsmithjr

Are you including inorganic, organic, and biological contaminants at any concentration under any possible hydrogeologic condition in that statement?

Should I have said "commonly found in residential groundwater"?

Why are you asking?

[sjsmithjr]

Originally Posted by Gary Slusser

Should I have said "commonly found in residential groundwater"?

Why are you asking?

I was surprised to see you present an inaccurate statement as factual in your earlier post.

Anyhow, water treatement does have it's place although it does nothing to prevent an improperly constructed, damaged, or poorly maintained well from creating a direct conduit for contaminants to enter the water supply. With a direct conduit, there will be no significant attenuation or dilution of a contaminant. And once those contaminants are in the groundwater, they can negatively impact the quality of your neighbor's water supply. That's why one should properly abandon or repair a damaged well. And yes, sometimes even a properly constructed well will need ex-situ treatment to provide potable water.

[Gary Slusser]

Originally Posted by sjsmithjr

I was surprised to see you present an inaccurate statement as factual in your earlier post.

Anyhow, water treatment does have it's place ..... And yes, sometimes even a properly constructed well will need ex-situ treatment to provide potable water.

What was the inaccurate statement; A-Z and everything in between? If so, what contaminate?