One well to Two places???

I am drilling a well and would like to hook it to two camps. I plan to use a submersible pump. I would like to put a bladder tank in each camp, however I know it would be working off of one pressure switch. Can you do it this way or do you have to have a bladder type pump in the well? Any info would be appreciated. Jim

It depends on the distance from pump to tanks, and between the two cabins. The pipe size from pump to tank is also a factor.

It is common to have the tank some distance from the pump. I would put a good size pipe to the nearest tank and that tank would include the pressure switch, which would also be the power source. The other tank would be fed with a pipe adequate to keep it supplied and no pressure switch.

The pipes can be run by the shortest route. They don't have to split right at the pump head.

The total volume of the two bladder tanks should be at least 4 times the GPM rating of the pump.

If the pump is less than about 15 GPM you can use 1" pipe if flow is split and the distance doesn't exceed about 100 ft. The flow will generally be split between the two tanks. When one cabin demands water it will draw from both tanks if available. There should not be any check valve to prevent backflow from one tank to the other.

If the users of the cabins have sharing problems then you might want to put water meters on both lines. Rebuilt meters can be obtained for about $50 each.

You do need the pressure switch located at the base of a pressure tank. This tank can be at the well or at a distance from the well but, must include the pressure switch. An additional tank, located a distance away, may not fill at the same rate as the closer tank. Friction loss in the pipe line may cause the closest tank to fill first, and the pressure switch will shut off the pump. Then the higher pressure in this tank will transfer to the remote tank until the pressure in both equalizes. This can cause the first tank to start and stop the pump a time or two, before the remote tank is filled.

There is no reason why you could not supply both camps from one pressure tank. The size of the tank does not need to be 4 times the capacity of the pump if it is controlled with a Cycle Stop Valve. If it is a 15 GPM pump, you can either use (2) 80 gallon pressure tanks for 4 times the capacity, or use a Cycle Stop Valve with a single 20 gallon size tank. Other than reducing the size of the tank needed, there are many other benefits to using the CSV.

If you still want a remote pressure tank, the CSV will fill the tanks at 1 GPM, which eliminates the friction loss problem and allows both tanks to fill equally.

And if you use a roll of 160 or 200 psi rated PE pipe you'll have the least pressure loss of all water line materials. And you only need two fittings for the entire run; one on each end, using SS fittings and two opposed hose clamps per fitting. I suggest 1".

It is not necessary to have two 80-gallon tanks for a 15 GPM pump as suggested by Valveman.

I said: "The total volume of the two bladder tanks should be at least 4 times the GPM rating of the pump."

If you have a 15 GPM pump then the TOTAL ACTUAL VOLUME of the bladder tanks should be at least 60 gallons and the total drawdown will be about 18 gallons which will give a bit more than one minute of pump-on time to refill the tanks.

If you have only one tank then demand from the cabin with no tank will result in greater pressure loss as the water will have to flow from the other cabin. That can create a lot of pressure variation at the no-tank cabin.

Two equal size tanks will not cause cycling of the pump unless the pipe from the tank with the pressure switch to the tank without the pressure switch is too small, or the pressure switch is on a small tank near the pump that must supply a larger more remote tank. If the tanks are not the same size, then the pressure switch should be at the larger tank.

Using a control valve to limit cycling, rather that larger tanks, can cause large and rapid pressure swings at both cabins unless the pump and pipes are sized to supply the peak demand of both cabins at the same time. But sizing the pump for that flow requires a more expensive pump and larger pipe; and then using a control valve such as the CSV, results in greater power consumption than would be the case if adequately sized tanks are used to provide the peak demand.

I completely missed the words "total volume" in BobNH's post. Using the 60 gallon tank, with 18 gallons of draw down as he suggested, could cause a 15 gpm pump to cycle 360 times per day. This is a worst case condition that would only happen if you are using about 8 GPM for 24 hours a day. However, a pump for 2 camps should expect worse case conditions. Using the (2) 80 gallon tanks would be much safer with a system that has variable and unpredictable flow rates such as most camps.

On a system with 2 tanks at different locations, the size of the tanks does not make any difference. Even 2 equally sized tanks can fill at different rates and times as I have explained. Installing to small of a pipe line is also the only reason one camp would see a lower pressure than the other, no matter the size or placement of the tanks.

Using a Cycle Stop Valve will not cause large and rapid pressure swings but, just the opposite. The CSV is a "constant pressure" valve, and will hold a steady pressure regardless of the amount of flow being used. Large and rapid pressure swings would be caused by the old style system that BobNH is recommending, as the pressure will continually rise and fall from 60 to 40, filling and draining the tank, and causing the pump to cycle on and off.

The pump must be sized to supply the peak demands of both camps at the same time. Without a large enough pump, the 18 gallons stored in the 60 gallon tank, or even the 50 gallons stored in two of the 80 gallon tanks, will not be enough extra when there is a peak demand. With the pressure tank only system, you also have no guarantee of how much water is in the tanks before a peak demand calls for water. It is more likely that the system will be at 41 PSI with a 40/60 pressure switch, when there is a peak demand. That means that there is no stored water available in the tank or tanks, and if your pump cannot handle the demand on it's own, you are out of water at both camps.

The CSV resulting in greater power consumption is also a false statement. Eliminating the rapid cycling that can happen with the old pressure tank only systems, the CSV can actually reduce energy consumption. The CSV can also double or triple the life of your pump system while using a much smaller and less expensive pressure tank. Most importantly, the CSV will deliver constant "city like" pressure, compared to the pressure constantly fluctuating from low to high like an old farm house, as pressure tank only systems will do.

valveman said:

I completely missed the words "total volume" in BobNH's post. Using the 60 gallon tank, with 18 gallons of draw down as he suggested, could cause a 15 gpm pump to cycle 360 times per day. This is a worst case condition that would only happen if you are using about 8 GPM for 24 hours a day. However, a pump for 2 camps should expect worse case conditions. . .

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The very idea of two camps drawing 8 GPM for 24 hours per day and making the pump cycle 360 times per day, and that the pump should be sized for such a worst case condition, is absurd.

The user may use his own judgement regarding the rest of the reply.

I didn't say the pump should be sized for such a worst case condition as 8 GPM for 24 hours a day. I said the pump should be sized for the peak demand of both camps, because a pressure tank doesn't hold enough water to make up the difference.

360 cycles per day is probably not going to happen but, half a day is 180 cycles, 6 hours is 90 cycles, and 3 hours is 45 cycles. None of these numbers are good for the pump. That is also how many times he will see the pressure swing from low to high, also not good.

Having been in the pump business all my life, I always plan for the worst case scenario. No matter what you design the pump system to do, worst case is always what they end up using it for.

Guys I appreciate you responses, however I think I am more confused then when I started. Can we come to the best solution for my situation or agree to disagree. Jim

Jigger,

The reason your confused is the constant barrage of over engineered systems like the ones BobNH proposes. The simple system is always the best and the CSV really does work. There are just a few members of this forum that for whatever reason want to try their best to disprove what is already very true.

bob...

I would like to go with the simplest solution at the lowest cost, because these are only hunting camps. The one camp is going to be about 70' from the well and the other 30' from the first camp. If I put the 20 gallon pressure tank with the pressure switch on it in the first camp, where do I put the CSV in the system. Also I believe there is a pressure switch on the submersible I have. What happens with that.

Jigger said:

I would like to go with the simplest solution at the lowest cost, because these are only hunting camps. The one camp is going to be about 70' from the well and the other 30' from the first camp. If I put the 20 gallon pressure tank with the pressure switch on it in the first camp, where do I put the CSV in the system. Also I believe there is a pressure switch on the submersible I have. What happens with that.

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Hunting camps:
That means no irrigation, not too many showers. With the camps that close together you can easily get by with one tank.

With one tank you can get by with a tank that has an actual volume at least 3 times the GPM rating of the pump. If you can find the model of the pump someone can find the rating for you.

With no irrigation and few showers you don't need a CSV but it won't hurt anything except the electric bill which will be small in any case.

If it is a submersible pump you should have a relief valve at the tank. If the switch is really on the pump (and probably not a submersible if it is on the pump) then you have less reason to use a CSV.

One tank at the first building, or where the power is coming from. The pressure switch is probably not on a submersible pump. If there is a pressure switch on the pump it is probably not a submersible.

If it is freezing climate then you need to be able to drain the system easily.

Sorry Jigger. I should have culled a lot of this info to keep from confusing you. I recently installed a very similar system. I have two hunting camps about a 1,000' apart, with a barn in between that also has water for cleaning things. I used a ½ HP 10 GPM submersible, pumping from about 80' deep with a 20 gallon size tank, controlled by a 30/50 pressure switch and a 40 PSI Cycle Stop Valve. Everybody at the camps loves the 40 PSI constant pressure from the CSV, compared to the old 30/50 pressure bounce they had been used to. I set it up with a bleeder orifice about 5' down in the well to make it easy to drain the system. Basically you just turn the power off to the pump, open a faucet or two, and the bleeder drains everything back, so no freezing problem. On return you just turn power on to the pump, wait for the air to stop coming out of the faucets, close the faucets and back in business.

BobNH will try any amount of over engineering to justify not having to use a Cycle Stop Valve. The rest of us are giving him long explanations of fairly new technology, to try and bring him out of the 19th century. Sorry your post got caught up in it. While you really do not have to use a CSV, it is the simplest and safest way to control the system. The CSV works with a smaller tank and delivers a constant 40 pounds of pressure, so you don't have to put up with the pressure bouncing from 30 to 50 the entire time water is being used. The CSV is a fairly new way of controlling pumps. It has only been around for about 15 years. So people who are still designing systems the same way we did a couple of decades ago, do not understand the benefits of the CSV.