drain pipe failure - pics

Hi all,

I'm looking for some answers. About a year ago, a friend called me to say her kitchen floor had flooded in front of the sink and dishwasher, and also had water on the ceiling of the basement bathroom below the kitchen. I went over and looked - took toe-kicks off and dishwasher bottom. There was some evidence of water, but after running the dishwasher and sink, we were unable to reproduce a leak. The water ruined part of her laminate kitchen floor. We speculated that perhaps she had used too much soap in her dishwasher (she has a water softener). She called her insurance company but after hearing that we couldn't reproduce it, they simply suggested she wait to file a claim if she wanted the kitchen floor fixed sometime before she sold the house. They also told her it may not be worth it to file a claim since her deductible was 1000.00.

She had evidence of a little water about 6 months later, but again figured she had put too much soap in the dishwasher.

Now, this past weekend she called to tell me that she had been washing dishes in her sink and when she let the water out of the sink, the bathroom below was flooding. When I went over and ran just a little water into the sink, it was immediately showing up running down walls of the room below.

This morning she was calling her insurance company and had called a plumber to find the source of the problem. Since she had to be at work, I let the plumber in.

We found the source of the problem to be a cracked ABS sch-40 drain. We had to pull a kitchen corner base cabinet to expose the cavity where the drain line runs. This drain only serves the kitchen sink area.

I've attached a couple of pictures. The first is the drain pipe in the kitchen wall. The 2nd is the joist cavity just below the kitchen. The vertical section of drain/vent pipe in the kitchen wall is cracked/split along the entire foot-long section from the elbow fitting in the joist cavity to the T-fitting that joins the sink drain to the assembly. The crack is on the backside of the pipe so you can't actually see the split in the picture. I found the split when I wrapped my hand around the pipe.

Her insurance company told her to stop whatever work the plumber was doing until an adjuster could look at things. At least the problem has been identified and exposed. They also suggested that unless this was a "burst" pipe, her insurance may not cover things. She was astounded at that answer.

This house was built in the early 1980's.

Have you guys ever seen a drain pipe just split open like this? Obviously, it has opened up worse just this past weekend since there has not been any obvious leaking before now. It may have been leaking a bit, but nothing that one could really see.

Would such a thing normally be covered by a decent homeowners insurance policy ?

Sorry for the long story. Thanks for any observations.

Charlie

Well, since I'm not a professional plumber, there are many things that I have not seen and this is one of them. I can tell you this however. "Burst" is a result of pressure. There is never any pressure on a drain. Your friend if free to try to run this past the insurance company, but I seriously doubt if they will consider a split drain fitting to have burst.

The fittings are fine. The pipe between the two fittings split the length of the pipe section.

Yep, no pressure on a drain - go figure. You may be right in terms of convincing insurance co about burst pipe; however, I found a simple definition of burst in on-line cambridge dictionary "when something breaks open, and what's inside breaks out". Sigh.

Charlie

strain.

That pipe is heated and cooled from what passes through it over the years. That plastic is pliable and bendable and you can work with it with very little problems when first installed.

What happens over time is that plastic hardens like ceramic due to temperature variances.

Room temperature to hot, room temperature to cold back and forth over time.

That piping was probably strained into position when it was installed by the plumber to either get the cutouts in the floor/studs to work because back then you could pull it with no problems and it will go. Cutting the pipe and watching it spring to another direction than where it was is a good indicator that is was strained.

That strain where the piping is hardens the plastic twice as fast as normal age progression goes. Thermal expansion/contraction of polyvinyl chloride or acrylonitrile butadiene styrene without proper tolerances causes this as well.

Any plumbing code book in every state should have statements about pulling piping into position and strap piping with the ability of some movement.

Most if not all times when situations like above occur, they always break in the most horrible places that make it very difficult to repair. Most times it is the fitting, not the pipe that snaps under strain.


Could of also been a mishandled pipe that was dropped before installation and somehow passed the air test. Over time it is just slowly opening up. CPVC is notorious for splitting in the same fashion when freezing.

It's very common for insurance policies to cover only "sudden" flooding, usually as a result of burst pipes. I doubt there's any way to talk your insurance company into paying for this. If you have friend for a lawyer, you might see what his/her opinion might be with respect to going after the manufacturer of the pipe, but I'd say your chances of winning are slim to none, and closer to none at that. This is one of those unfortunate life experiences where -- literally in this case -- sh*t happens.

Thanks for the replies.

The installation seemed to have some "slack" in it for movement, but will double check that. It's in an insulated wall space so I doubt there was any freezing, but certainly cooler in the wall cavity than in the adjoining living space. Marginal installation or damage before install seem most reasonable, but that may not make any difference as far as insurance. I hope whatever "repair" is done at this point is done well and effective. Yes, it obviously opened up more over time.

Charlie

If the repair runs even 3-$400.00 I doubt it will even reach your deductable.

A number of years ago, there was a class action regarding split ABS pipe. It affected pipe made by certain manufacturers, so be sure to preserve any and all pipe sections, and be sure to inspect the pipe to try to identify the names and numbers printed on it.

google ABS lawsuit to find details. It has been quite a while, and I have no idea if you would have any recourse under the suit.

here is a link: http://www.abspipes.com/

so that's why they pulled

all abs pipe and fittings off the shelves at the big box stores a year after they arrived in my area.

That pipe would be curled just sitting in the racks like bad lumber.

I guess my theory is flawed then if this pipe is bad going in.

Thank you all.

I will save and inspect the pipe. I posted my same situation over on "selfhelpforums" and a fellow over there provided a link to the class action thing. It dealt with pipe between 1984 - 1990 I think. The defective pipe failures manifested as circumferencial cracks near the fittings. This crack is linear along the length of the pipe - but still worth checking because this house was built in 1985. I think (and hopeful) the insurance will cover the damage if not the actual plumbing repair so $400 for the plumbing repair would be a small part of the total.

Is it possible to replace this section with PVC or would that be a no-no? We'll have to rely on the plumber. My poor friend is concerned not just with the damage from this event, but wondering about 3 bathrooms plumbed with the same stuff.

Thanks again.
Charlie

You can always install PVC, but there is no acceptable way to GLUE PVC to ABS, so you would have to use no-hub clamp connectors.