Volts leaking to ground rod

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DonL

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Don,
If you don't understand the basics, you should not be playing with electricity. For sure then you should not be giving advice!!


If your theory is correct then everything would need to be running on 240V Only and it is not, to the best of my knowledge.

The neutral is the return path for 120V devices.


Please correct me if I am wrong, Anyone.
 
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LLigetfa

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Please correct me if I am wrong, Anyone.
You are wrong. The 120V loads are in series, so the two legs cancel out. It is only the unbalanced differential current that is seen on the neutral between the panel and the pole.
 

Reach4

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If your theory is correct then everything would need to be running on 240V Only and it is not, to the best of my knowledge.

The neutral is the return path for 120V devices.


Please correct me if I am wrong, Anyone.

I don't get it. Your humor is too subtle this time.
 

LLigetfa

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Your humor is too subtle this time.

I fail to see the humor as well except perhaps claiming it is a theory and then supposing it is mine. LOL

In fact, it is not a theory at all, but rather a law. There is a big difference between theory and law.

http://www.faqs.org/docs/electric/AC/AC_10.html
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You must not have understood what I wrote about only the differential going to neutral. If each leg is pulling roughly the same amps, there will be no amps on the neutral. THis is sparky 101...

I understood fine, I am fully conversant in the phenomenon.

I did a test today with my clamp on, one leg had about an amp on it, the other a bit over two, the neutral had about an amp and the ground showed about 0.25.

There was no one in the house at the time. I'd assume that the two amps were the fridge and the other were some lights or a computer or tv.
 
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Today's development:

The power co guy came out. He did not like the look of the crimp on the whip coming down off the pole, at the weatherhead.

He pulled the meter and plugged in a tester he called The Beast. Essentially two analog volt meters ranging from 0 to 150, with two resistance loads and a switch that could bring one or the other in. The volts dropped on the order of 5v on either leg when either load was fed in, so he called in his line crew, and they chose to replace the whip up to the pole (I told you these guys were responsive. I know their GM personally and he runs a fine ship.)

Then my power co guy comes out and he plugs in his beast again. This time the variance is 3 volts. He did not seem pleased with that, but possibly willing to live with it.

I put my clamp on ammeter on the ground cable, and found 0.40 amp. Which I still find unacceptable, but I also don't know where it is coming from.

The power co guy gets out yet another tester (now the meter is back) which he calls a hair dryer. It is a resistance load of 800 watts, with two probes.

He tests from the neutral bar to the hot of a breaker, and then the breaker next to it.

We did that three times. Consistently, my ampprobe either gains or loses 0.15 amps, depending on which leg he is pulling from.

Weird.

He replaced the meter with a power condition recorder that is going to give him a minute by minute record of volts and amps passing thru the meter socket. He is ready to leave that on the house for a week.

He is not of the opinion that this is a catastrophic situation, and he agrees with me that if the conduit is seeing current because a neutral insulated with cloth and rubber and installed 80 years ago is chaffed and shunting current down that path, that attempting to find it is only going to destroy a lot of brittle insulation and hasten the day that someone re-wires this house.

Admittedly, a whole lot of thwn would be a comfort.

I'm going to meet with him on Monday and we will read the measurements. He will understand them, I hope. I don't pretend that I will gain much from it, except what I am told..
 
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JWelectric

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There is a lot of misinformation in that link.

A couple of paragraphs later it shows positive negative negative positive which is incorrect.
From either end of the winding it will always be positive negative positive negative. Think of the 240 volt series circuit which would make one side of the 240 volt winding positive and the other end negative Which does not change when the neutral has current.

This link also implies that one end of the 240 volt winding is somehow 180 degrees out of phase with the other end which is untrue. As the primary winding oscillates it is inducing the same sine wave into the secondary winding. The law of physics will not allow for the induced voltage to somehow be split into two sine waves that are 180 degrees out of phase with each other.

What some see as being 180 degrees out of phase is the manner in which they connect their oscilloscope to the secondary. Their scope will only have one ground and they connect two different channels to that one ground. Stand on the center line of a highway and watch traffic. When we watch one lane of traffic coming toward us and one coming from behind while looking down the center of the road we see traffic going in two different directions when in reality should we watch one lane at a time they are all going in the same direction. One lane will be going from right to left and when we turn around to watch the other lane, guess what; they are going from right to left. As you can see from the highway experiment it is all in how it is being viewed.

Should you have access to an oscilloscope another experiment you can do is to take two flashlight batteries and connect them just like they were in a flashlight. Now connect the ground to the center of those two batteries and channel A to one end and channel B to the other and guess what you will see on the scope, yep you got it, two 1.5 volt lines that are 180 degrees out of whack with each other although you will be able to see they are in line of positive negative positive negative.

Anyone remember the commercial where the girl found a French model on the internet? The moral of that story is a good one, don’t put your confidence in anything found on the internet.
 

BobL43

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The plasma suit should not be required if you have a Aluminum Foil Hat.


PPE is important.
Oh yeah, that aluminum foil hat. I bought the same model you did at that flea market in Houston. And yes HJ, if I had a
f1 car, I'd be a race car driver.

I was an industrial controls and drives specialist before I retired. I never knew what I was doing, but my boss thought I did and paid me very well. Maybe I was just very humble.
 
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There is a lot of misinformation in that link.

.....


Anyone remember the commercial where the girl found a French model on the internet? The moral of that story is a good one, don’t put your confidence in anything found on the internet.

Well, we have wandered off the point a bit, I'd say.
 

Reach4

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This link also implies that one end of the 240 volt winding is somehow 180 degrees out of phase with the other end which is untrue. As the primary winding oscillates it is inducing the same sine wave into the secondary winding. The law of physics will not allow for the induced voltage to somehow be split into two sine waves that are 180 degrees out of phase with each other.

When you measure voltage, it is with respect to a potential somewhere. If we are measuring with respect to the grounded center tap, the two hots are indeed 180 degrees out of phase with each other. Measuring WRT the grounded center tap is a most reasonable reference point.
 

JWelectric

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When you measure voltage, it is with respect to a potential somewhere. If we are measuring with respect to the grounded center tap, the two hots are indeed 180 degrees out of phase with each other. Measuring WRT the grounded center tap is a most reasonable reference point.
Pray tell us all just how the sine wave some how splits and inverts itself in a winding, it can't. There is no way possible that the winding can have a positive on both ends at the same time. Ever put batteries in a flashlight with one turned the wrong way? Didn't work did it? The same thing would happen if the winding some way ended up with a + at both ends
 
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Reach4

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Pray tell us all just how the sine wave some how splits and inverts itself in a winding, it can't. There is no way possible that the winding can have a positive on both ends at the same time
If the two ends had a positive at the same time, they would be in phase. Since they are out of phase, then the two hots will not be positive at the same time.
 

DonL

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I tried measuring a center tap transformer, and I could not get + or -.

My meter kept saying Overload, when I measure for polarity on DC.

What might be wrong here.

LOL
 

LLigetfa

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Don, you have to be really fast. The polarity changes 60 times a second. Well... in some parts of the World at least. Not sure about in your alternate reality World.
 
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