help sizing pump

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ndwolf

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thanks for the input everyone. it seems like there is no real answer to this. the choice is install a 4 inch without the sleeve and hope it cools ok or go with the higher rpm 3 inch grunfos with a sleeve and hope it will last just as long.
what really gets me now is why the h... the well digger didnt put a larger casing in. he knew what the application was for so why wouldnt he put a larger casing in so that a 4inch pump with sleeve could be installed. Just goes to show i should have done the research and not trusted someone who had 25 yrs of drilling wells to make the decisions. ill be calling him on Monday to see what his reasoning was.
 

Craigpump

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I have a couple dozen CU 301 controllers out there and have had no issues with any of them.

One advantage the SQE offers is that if the controller should ever fail, a regular pressure switch can be installed and the system will operate just like a regular "dumb pump".
 

ndwolf

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I have a couple dozen CU 301 controllers out there and have had no issues with any of them.

One advantage the SQE offers is that if the controller should ever fail, a regular pressure switch can be installed and the system will operate just like a regular "dumb pump".
is the cu301 controller what varies the speed to the motor. if so why do the variable speed stuff get such bad reviews
 

Craigpump

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The CU 301 works in conjunction with the electronics in the pump motor to control the pump speed.

There's a whole host of reasons VFD's get a bad name, they weren't very reliable when they first hit the market, there were reports of radio interference, they aren't any less expensive, the control units are very expensive and prone to damage due to lightning......... I prefer a standard dumb pump, pressure switch and a large tank.
 

Valveman

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There's a whole host of reasons VFD's get a bad name.

Engineer quote from 1968
“I predict the recent introduction of Variable Frequency controllers will make constant speed motors a thing of the past”.

Engineer quote from 1982
“Variable Frequency technology will revolutionize the pump industry in less than a decade”.

Engineer Quote from 1993 (the same year Cycle Stop Valves were introduced)
“The rapid advancement of Variable Frequency Drives will render the pump control valve obsolete within a couple of years.”

Engineer Quote from 2013
“Someday I'll wrap my mind around CSV and reach a conclusion, but with VFDs getting better and cheaper by the day the issue may become sidelined soon.”

No matter how bad they want it to be true, the laws of physics have been a formidable stumbling block for VFD’s. For over 40 years VFD manufacturers have been beaten back by the side effects of varying the pump speed. VFD’s cause many problems including resonance frequency vibration, voltage spikes, harmonics, EDM currents, parasitic losses, cooling issues, and many others. Had Mother Nature not gotten in the way with these issues, VFD’s would have taken over the industry many years ago.

However, because of the tremendous profits from VFD sales, along with being able to con people into falsely believing VFD’s save energy, the VFD ruse continues to this day. VFD’s HAVE become better and cheaper, but they will never be able to overcome obstacles created by the Laws of Physics.

The Cycle Stop Valve was invented to replace VFD’s over 20 years ago. In contrast to the continuing problems and associated “updates” to VFD’s, the CSV works WITH the Laws of Physics and therefore has changed very little in 20+ years. We have learned that the more VFD’s sold, the more there are to be replaced with CSV’s later.

I have been hearing that VFD’s are getting better and cheaper for so long, you would think people would realize by now that you can’t fool Mother Nature. But then again even though the evidence is overwhelming against it, many people still believe in man made global warming and that our government is here to help us.
 

ndwolf

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does anyone know if they make a 4 inch pump that has overheat protection or is there a control unit that can detect overheat and shut the pump down?
 

Valveman

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does anyone know if they make a 4 inch pump that has overheat protection or is there a control unit that can detect overheat and shut the pump down?

All submersible motors have thermal overloads built into them. The problem is that by the time the motor is hot enough to trip a thermal overload, it is already hot enough to cause damage. It is best to PREVENT motor heating instead of trying to shut the motor down after it has overheated. A Cycle Sensor to prevent running dry, and a flow inducer to make the flow go past the motor is an ounce of prevention that is better than a pound of cure.

If a Grundfos 3"pump is set totally top feeding situation, it will overheat and shut itself off....I've personally seen it happen, and putting a piece of 3" DWV pipe cured it instantly.

Good to know VA. I don’t think it is supposed to happen like that, but I am not positive the SQ has the little internal pump. I think that was in the “jetsub” which was the precursor to the SQ pump. I am not positive they incorporated the internal pump into the SQ.
 

ndwolf

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All submersible motors have thermal overloads built into them. The problem is that by the time the motor is hot enough to trip a thermal overload, it is already hot enough to cause damage. It is best to PREVENT motor heating instead of trying to shut the motor down after it has overheated. A Cycle Sensor to prevent running dry, and a flow inducer to make the flow go past the motor is an ounce of prevention that is better than a pound of cure.



Good to know VA. I don’t think it is supposed to happen like that, but I am not positive the SQ has the little internal pump. I think that was in the “jetsub” which was the precursor to the SQ pump. I am not positive they incorporated the internal pump into the SQ.


i agree but if i used a 4 inch pump the flow sleeve is not possible so i thought maybe there was some other protection possible.
can anyone explain how to put a piece of 3" DWV over a grundfos 3 inch pump. i understand how its suppose to work by causing the flow to go around the motor before going into the pump intake but not sure how the DWV would be fastened to the pump and how or if it has to be sealed around the top where the drop down pipe meets the pump.
 

Valveman

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Cut three pie shaped wedges from the top. Slip it over the motor and pump until the pie shaped cutouts are a few inches above the pump intake and the bottom of the flow inducer is even with the bottom of the motor. Use a 3” hose clamp to draw in the pie shaped wedges to tighten against the pump. Then use electric tape to cover over the hose clamp and the gaps between the cutouts.

Here is a video if a similar one on a much larger pump.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVBpCVqX7Jk
 

ndwolf

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Cut three pie shaped wedges from the top. Slip it over the motor and pump until the pie shaped cutouts are a few inches above the pump intake and the bottom of the flow inducer is even with the bottom of the motor. Use a 3” hose clamp to draw in the pie shaped wedges to tighten against the pump. Then use electric tape to cover over the hose clamp and the gaps between the cutouts.

Here is a video if a similar one on a much larger pump.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVBpCVqX7Jk

thanks that helped. one other question i have is do you secure the safety cable for the pump along the drop down pipe every so many ft or does the safety cable stay free from the drop down pipe. also i read that 1 1/4" pvc poly stretchs over time. do you have to allow for this in setting the pump depth (and if so how much)or is it to little stretch over the 120 ft distance to worry about.
 

Valveman

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Poly pipe may stretch a little but it is plenty strong enough to pull the pump with. Don't use a rope or "safety cable" unless you just want to add more problems. If the rope or cable comes loose and falls in, it works like a wedge to keep you from getting the pump out.
 

ndwolf

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i just talked to the well driller today and he said that they have dug wells in this area just like the one he dug for me for yrs and that they always put 4.5 inch casings in. He looked over his records on the dig and says i shouldnt have any problems cooling the pump if i do put it down low at 125 ft( he recommended also). He said he was confident enough to warrenty the pumps he sells for 5 yrs under these conditions. He sells goulds with franklin motors. if something goes wrong within the 5 yrs he said just bring it back and he would give me a new one. I know 5 yrs is not all that long but just cause they only warrenty them for 5yrs doesnt mean it wont last longer. the 3 inch pumps only have 2 yr warrenty so i think his deal is better. he said no torque arrestor( i thought you needed one) but he said they dont put them on thier installations with small pumps.And he recommended a 10gpm dole valve to keep the pump in the curve.

No safty cable valveman. Thats the first i heard of that but i wont dismiss it but will look and ask around. isnt the drop down pipe just held on by hose clamps when using coiled poly over slip-on fittings? what if they worked loose?
 

Craigpump

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Goulds with Franklin motors? He isn't buying them like that, Goulds comes with Centripro motors.

We NEVER use "safety" rope, unless we want to create a potentially expensive job down the road for someone. As for the poly pipe and insert fittings, when they are done properly, the pipe will stretch before the joint fails.

Why use 1.25 poly when 1" will do the job for a little less money and be easier to handle?
 
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ndwolf

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Goulds with Franklin motors? He isn't buying them like that, Goulds comes with Centripro motors.

We NEVER use "safety" rope, unless we want to create a potentially expensive job down the road for someone. As for the poly pipe and insert fittings, when they are done properly, the pipe will stretch before the joint fails.

Why use 1.25 poly when 1" will do the job for a little less money and be easier to handle?

your right on the 1.25. He also said use 1 inch so ill go with that. i also said to him that goulds has centripro motors and he said they use franklin. i ask twice to just make sure and he said yes they put the franklin on the goulds. i guess you guys know better than i do on the safety rope. any tips on how to get the brass fittings and the poly properly fit together or which fittings are best for this type of job. i suppose i could just get the fittings from the well digger as youd think they use good ones but id still like to be educated.

thanks to everyone for the advise and taking the time to help.:)
 

Craigpump

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Can't buy Goulds pumps with Franklin motors around here, maybe it's different in ND? Maybe he buys Goulds wet ends and puts Franklin motors on them?

There are a couple of ways to put poly on a brass or stainless insert fitting. One is to warm the pipe with a propane torch until it is pliable and then slip it on the adapter. Some guys use a heat gun instead of a torch. I've heard that some guys use really hot water and submerge the pipe in the water until warm and then slip it over the adapter.

Be sure the adapter you use is compatible with the pump, stainless pump, stainless adapter. Brass pump, brass adapter.
 
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