Losing Prime

I've been having this recurring of the pump losing prime for over a year now. Typically happened when I had the shower running and flushed the toilet, or vice versa or when I turned on the washer. If I waited until the toilet stopped and turned on the shower really slow then it would work fine and I've never had a shortage of water. Turned the inlet valves for the washer down really low and they don't cause the loss of prime. Now it lost prime and I can't get it back as easily as before - yesterday I couldn't get it back at all but I'm going to try again today. When I open the bleeder just where the suction pipe goes into the pump, there seems to be a vacuum so I'm guessing the pump is sucking but I can't quantify if the suction is enough.

The well is a 2 3/4 OD packer (I assume) deep well with a 2 hp goulds jet pump HSJ20. I'm not sure how deep it is but I'm trying to find out.

The well head is inside of a pump house and the plumbing of well head looks kind of screwy (pictures available upon request). I've double checked the pressure settings (40-60) and the tank preload pressure (38) but from there I'm stumped. One of the guys that came out said to try to reconfigure the plumbing on top of the well head and see if that helps. The jet line is assembled with what looks like an upside down j trap which is higher than the suction line and the well head is 180 degrees off (the jet line is on the opposite side away from the pump ( can't move the pump to the other side due to the wall).

I've had two pump and well companies come out and before they even walked into the pump house were trying to sell me a new drilled well. I'm skeptical because the available water -when it's running right - is really good.

I'm guessing the options are to either rework the well or drill a new one; neither of which is attractive due to a shortage of money.

Any ideas on how to diagnose the problem more accurately? I'd hate to rework the well only to find that it was a waste of time and have to then drill a new one.

I am not familiar with Goulds model numbers, so I don't know what pump you have other than it's a two horse. It may be a two or three stage pump also. The main thing is that it has a backpressure control on it, and it is properly adjusted. Without the backpressure control, the pump will lose prime when the pressure drops below a given point dependent on your water level etc.

Pictures might be the best thing. It will save a lot of typing.

bob...

The HSJ20 is a 3 stage convertible jet pump. There is a choice of three different jet assemblies for use with a 3" casing. They all use a 1 1/2" suction pipe.

The different jet packages and venturis are for different depths of well. You should be able to get new parts for the pump and jet assembly, but you would need to know what jet assembly you have or need.

Pulling and reinstalling a packer system is not a good place to start learning about wells and pumps. If I had to replace one, I would be tempted to spend the money for one of the small submersibles.

Well prime problems, day ????

Thanks Bob for the response. I'll definitely add that to my data points and learning curve. I guess in response to your reply I should ask if I am right in assuming that the best course of action at this point is to pull the packer assy and make sure it has all of the right stuff as explained in Speedbump and your emails.

I'm not sure how to check and/or adjust the backpressure control - or if one is even installed. If I can get some guidance, I'm a 24 year Navy aviation maintenance guy so I figure if I can make jets keep flying, I can get this dang well to work.

Also, I'm guessing at that point that verifying that the water level is still sufficient would be a good idea and then determine if it is even worth shopping for a downhole pump. If the outside dimension of the casing at the well head is 2 3/4 then would the inside diameter be probably 2 1/2 or 2 1/4? I guess that's how you would size the downhole pump - say a 2 inch diameter downhole pump?

Finally, I called the folks who drilled the well in the first place and the guy was trying to sell me a new well even before he listened to all of what has been going on. When I asked about the possibility of something other than the water table dropping, he got rude and said, "What do I need to do, draw you a picture?" I think I'll call some other companies.

I'm wondering if it would be cost effective to pull out the packer and string of pipe and go from there or simply cut and run and drill a new one?

Thanks again,
Dave

2 3/4" OD is an odd size; probably 2 1/2" pipe which is actually 2.875 OD and 2.469 if Schedule 40. I don't know what size packer fits that.

The Goulds 2" packer is the FP2 http://www.sprinklers4irrigation.com/en-us/dept_1648.html available in bronze or iron.

I don't know of a down-hole pump that small, except some sampling pumps that are not adequate for water supply.

You should probably assume that the packer is correct for the pump and well. It worked at one time.

If it is a jet assembly for a 2" pipe then the center pipe should be 1 1/4".

The back pressure control should be something that looks like a regulator.

I think you have a 2" well. There are (or used to be) jets for 2.5" wells and there are still jets for 3" wells. But that's it. No in between sizes.

If your well is more than 30 years old, I wouldn't be spending a lot of money fixing it up. Since the casing is used as a return pipe to the jet and is under pressure all the time and there is probably an acidic surface water vein somewhere between 5 and 30 feet below ground, it will someday develop holes in that casing rendering the deep well jet useless.

In a lot of cases when a water level is at a certain point, the pump will not work without the backpressure control.

bob...

Progress

Well, I seem to have made some progress. I got the well primed and have been able to get it up to where the 40-60 was working. Unfortunately when I turned on some water inside the house, the pressure started falling and once it dropped below about 37 it seemed to lose it and the pressure started falling really fast. I caught it by shutting off the water to the house (the ball valve is an arm's reach away) and it was able to build back up to 40-60.

I boosted up the pump-on pressure to 45 and was able to turn the kitchen sink on and the pressure held at between 40 and 45 but if I turned on ONLY the shower (full bore) then the pressure would fall to about 37 and then fall towards zero but again I caught it. If I open the shower about 3/4s I can keep the water running at between 40 and 45.

One other thing is the needle gets very erratic sometimes but eentually smooths out.

I'm concluding the pressure control valve on the pump output pipe is probably not set right???? Am I thinking right? And is this also the backpressure control valve?

How do you adjust the pressure control valve? I can see the large adjustment screw but I'm not sure how to set it.

Maybe the well isn't dying after all - or maybe I'm hoping too much.

Of course I'm still wondering if it would be wise to have someone pull the packer and check out the casing, well depth, water level and if it's good, go back in with a new packer and the correct jet and venturi. The new pump is supposed to arrive tomorrow but if I don't need it, I'll try to return it.

http://www.goulds.com/pdf/BHSJ.pdf

My Goulds catalog shows pressure control valve settings for the HSJ20N with packer as follows:

2" Packer: 76 psi, 78 psi, and 80 psi for 0-100 ft, 100-150 ft, and 150-200 ft wells respectively.

3" packer: 75 psi, 78 psi, and 80 psi for 0-110 ft, 110-170 ft, and 170-230 ft well respectively.

I suspect that if you set the regulator somewhere in the range of 75 to 80 psi you will be pretty close.

If you find the regulator, there is usually a nut and a screw on top of it. The nut is a lock nut. Loosen the lock nut and turn the screw, usually clockwise, to increase the pressure. Then tighten the locknut.

Now I am going to get to what my understanding is from what I think I know about deep well jet pumps. The regulator is a 'BACK PRESSURE REGULATOR" that controls the pressure in the drive pipe. The regulator maintains the pressure in the drive pipe by releasing only as much water as it can to not let the drive pressure get below the setting. If the drive pressure is too low, the pump won't work.

My catalog says there are three connections; 1 1/4" sucttion, 1" discharge, and 1" drive. The discharge goes to your tank and the drive goes to the well.

You must have a pressure gauge on the drive pipe connection, which is on the side of the regulator toward the pump and away from your tank. This gauge is in addition to the gauge on your tank. You must adjust the pressure on the regulator to increase that drive pressure high enough to drive the jet system nozzle and venturi. From what I have seen in my catalog, I would start around 78 psi.

The drive pressure should be the pressure in the 1" line that goes to the well.

Now if someone with real experience in deep well jet pumps has better information, then I defer to them.

Goulds must have a lot of faith in their multistage pumps. There is just about no way anybodys jet pump is going to work with a 200 foot water level.

I had a look at that pump of yours on the Goulds Web site. Since it is a convertable jet pump. They don't show it with a backpressure control or shallow well jet. So your going to have to find it if you have one and make the adjustment Bob is talking about. You can't do it from anyones manual or directions. It has to be set by trial and error. If you screw it all the way in, start the pump, the pressure should jump to max. Then you back the screw/bolt out until the pump drops to zero or starts to sound like it has marbles inside. This has to be done with the pump running open discharge not into a pressure tank. Now you turn the screw/bolt back in about 1 full turn and that should be the proper setting. That is until the water table drops.

If this doesn't help, you are seeing the maximum amount of water your well is capable of. Either because of a low flow well, plugged well screen or a very deep water level.

bob...

Wow

Ok I thought I was good but you all threw a sinker at me.

I do have three pipes at the pump. I can tell the suction, the drive and the outlet.

But there is no regulator, or control or set screw or locknut with a screw anywhere I can find other than the regulator type attachment that is the one attached to the outlet that controls the electrical motor. I'm not even sure how to adjust that one. I can adjust the electrical control on the motor to get the proper start and stop psi but the regulator? has a large screw (size of a nickel) on it.

I can't attach the pics because they are big so if you all would send me your other emails addresses I'll send the pics.

Speedbump, what do you think of pulling the packer and going back in with the proper setup if an examination of the well proves that it is still viable?

Dave

http://www.goulds.com/pdf/BFITTING.pdf

I finally found a picture of the control system parts for the HSJ series pumps. It doesn't look like anything I have seen and doesn't match what I have described.

Look on Page 2 at the link and find the AV22KIT. That is apparently what passes for a regulator on the HSJ20 deep well system. Do you have anything like that?

I couldn't find any directions for setting it, but it appears to have an adjsutment.

http://www.goulds.com/pdf/Im102r01.pdf

Be sure to read the instructions on page 4 at the link above. It refers to the AV22 Kit and how to install it.

The control on both of Bob NH's links are what I am referring to. Do you have one of these? If so, try adjusting it like I described above. It should help a bunch.

bob...

Av22kit

I don't have anything like that on my pump and I'm not totally confident how it would be mounted. It appears that it would be mounted on the output to the tank but there would still be the drive line going back into the well.

I'm assuming that the AV22 restricts the water leaving the output side of the pump casing therefore causing the backpressure through the dive line going back down to the well????

My guess would be that the outlet of the AV22 would be routed to the tank???

I printed out the repair parts list from the goulds website and it shows a picture of the AV22 mounted on the output side of the pump. From that picture, I would have to assume that the pressure switch (AS4FX or AS10FX) would be plumbed into the line from the AV22 to the tanK???? Since the Illustrated Parts Breakdown doesn't show the connection of the pressure switch to the plumbing, I guess the 6K24 is how you would connect it to the pipe from the AV22 to the tank???

Whew this is making my head hurt and I haven't even started on the actual well/packer yet????

I think you have it right with the AV22, but I have the same pictures that you have.

I would think long and hard, and be desperate, before pulling that packer. That is a can of worms that you might not be able to close.

I fully agree. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Jets are not an easy thing pull. Plus, you may only need the control valve. I would look into buying one and inserting it between the pump and tank. If you do, the pressure switch has to be plumbed to the tank side of the valve. I sell one made by National Pump Co. that will work with that pump.

bob...

The priming loss problem has been occuring for about a year now. Has the current setup worked in the past? If so, then something has changed. Either the water level in the well has dropped significantly enough that it's beyond the pump's capabilities, or the packer is damaged or worn out, or perhaps, even, the pump is excessively worn. Might be worth looking inside the pump since it's on the surface. That Goulds HSJ20 is a multistage pump and there's impeller spacers, stainless steel plates with o-rings, etc., that must be positioned correctly on re-assembly. Take note how it comes apart.
Not knowing what is going on, the AV22 might make a difference, especially if the water level has changed.
I would suggest trying to determine the well casing size, seeing if there is a new packer available for that casing and then weighing the options before deciding whether to pursue a repair on the old well, or having a new well drilled.
Ron

Plumbing and adjusting the backpressure

I'm now trying to crack this nut about adjusting the backpressure. I got ahold of Goulds and they said that the aftermarket pressure regulator does the same function as the AV22.

On mine, there is a 1" close coming out of the top of the pump housing which leads into a 1" tee. Out of one leg of the tee is the regulator and out of the regulator is the 3/4" that leads to the tank. Prior to the tank os a ball valve shut off (I'll refer back to this in a minute). between the ball valve and the tank is a pressure gage.

On the other leg of the tee is a 1" close into another tee. Out of that tee, in one leg is another pressure gage and out of the other leg is a hose bib.

Here is what Bob said in an earlier post:
The regulator is a 'BACK PRESSURE REGULATOR" that controls the pressure in the drive pipe. The regulator maintains the pressure in the drive pipe by releasing only as much water as it can to not let the drive pressure get below the setting. If the drive pressure is too low, the pump won't work.

My catalog says there are three connections; 1 1/4" sucttion, 1" discharge, and 1" drive. The discharge goes to your tank and the drive goes to the well.

You must have a pressure gauge on the drive pipe connection, which is on the side of the regulator toward the pump and away from your tank. This gauge is in addition to the gauge on your tank. You must adjust the pressure on the regulator to increase that drive pressure high enough to drive the jet system nozzle and venturi. From what I have seen in my catalog, I would start around 78 psi.

The drive pressure should be the pressure in the 1" line that goes to the well.


I'm a little confused because Bob says to put the gage in the 1" drive pipe back to the well head but mine is on the pump side of the pressure regulator. Would my arrangement be the equivilent? I think it is OK based upon what I think Bob said and my understanding.

Now in Speedbump's post he said: If you screw it all the way in, start the pump, the pressure should jump to max. Then you back the screw/bolt out until the pump drops to zero or starts to sound like it has marbles inside. This has to be done with the pump running open discharge not into a pressure tank. Now you turn the screw/bolt back in about 1 full turn and that should be the proper setting.

Now this is what I've been trying - notice I said trying because I haven't been successful yet. One of the problems I'm having is that the pressure switch shuts off the pump before I can get to 78psi because I have the pressure range set at 40-60. Also, what I have been doing is shutting the ball valve to the tank and opening the hose bib since Speedbump said it had to be running full discharge not into the tank.

But I can't seem to get it to work. Between fighting the pump shutting off at 60 psi and or the pressure dropping to zero and not recovering and the dang mosquitos............ (and oh by the way the house air conditioner thermostat went dark last night so no AC and it's hot and muggy here in the storm drenched North East)

I ain't gonna give up but I need some more apprentice training.

And to answer Pumpman's last post: the well has done this the entire time I've been in the house so it isn't something new. I've merely adapted by turning on the water to the shower very slow and making sure not to flush the toilet at the same time (at least not until the pump kicks on and builds up some pressure.

"One of the problems I'm having is that the pressure switch shuts off the pump before I can get to 78psi because I have the pressure range set at 40-60. "

The pressure switch must be connected so it measures tank pressure; not the pressure on the pump side of the regulator or the pressure in the drive pipe.

So connections should be as follows:

The input (pump side) of the regulator is connected to the drive pipe. There shoud be a pressure gauge there so you can see the result of your adjustments. It may actually be connected through internal passages in the pump, but that's OK. The drive pipe connection on the pump, and the discharge port of the pump, are usually hydraulically connected inside the pump.

The output port of the regulator goes to the tank. The pressure switch and a pressure gauge should be measuring the pressure at the tank.

Yup, you need to move the switch plumbing on the tank side of the regulator. The ball valve should be left open all the time. And the hose bibb may not be what I call open discharge. What I meant, was to not have any artificial pressure on the pump. This way, you are letting the regulator do all the work.

bob...

Can we back up a minute?
Spurlockda, what happens when the pump loses prime? What do you have to do with it in order to reprime it?
Does your pressure switch have a lever on the side of it?
You may still need the AV22 on the system, but I'm trying to get a little better understanding.
Ron