Commercial installation vs DIY (replacing existing IQ-0820 system)

rnsmithtldiy · Oct 31, 2013

ditttohead said:
An adapter ring was made for that tank many years ago but it had a very high failure rate and has since been discontinued.

The people dial with hardness etc is typically ignored. Most newer electro-mechanical system do not have that sticker. It is used to set the reserve capacity. Now we just simply determine the system capacity based on the salt setting, then minus 60 gallons of water per person in the household per day.

God Dittohead, what is going on with these systems where a simple (at least it sounds simple to me) adapter ring will not work -- but thanks for that info.

I assumed that the people/hardness settings were somehow turned into a salt saturation regeneration equation -- and you could only guess what the system (the controller) is coming up with. I am not sure if I totally understood your other comment. Are you saying that you figure out how many days it would take to reach the system's capacity and run your regeneration cycle just before that point.

I thought I read that you could get better efficiency by doing the brine draw thing with a smaller saturation level (not really sure I am phrasing that right) -- which is more or less controlled by the amount of water and the time spent in the brine draw cycle. (i.e. I understand the brine itself is still maximally saturated (like is 15 lbs. / cu ft. the max saturation for salt in water), but if you reduce the amount of time or water used during the brine draw cycle, you are essentially reducing the saturation level and raising the efficiency of that cycle. (I think I am getting in over my head here - it is just that this saturation / efficiency has captured my attention.) ron in round rock

rnsmithtldiy · Oct 31, 2013

Gary Slusser said:
Ron, all the regeneration cycle positions are timed and flow controlled. The salt saturation is usually finished in 2-3 hrs after refill and we get 3 lbs per gallon of refill. That white dial with the pins and holes in it you mentioned on the back of the timer controls the time. It usually says 2 min/hole or pin. Yours may be different. So write down the number of pins/holes I.E. 5 holes, 6 pins, 2 holes, 5 pins, 2 holes 2 pins xx holes for us.

If that pin wheel does not rotate (in backwash etc.) at that X min per hole, the motor is not working or there is something else wrong like a contact switch or loose wire connection. Make sure you power to the valve.

In case you want or need to replace your control valve, here is a link to SS tank adapters;
http://www.apwinc.com/tankadapters-ss.html. Guaranteed to not break... Tell them I sent you.

Actually if it was my softener and not working I'd replace the whole thing and advertise the old one for say $200 for someone with a smaller house. BTW, you need to size and program for the max hardness in your 'city' water because at times they will be mixing water sources and your hardness will fluctuate and the softener will let hard water through. Then you would need to do 2 manual regenerations at 15lbs/cuft one after the other with no water use during or between the two regenerations to get all the capacity back in the resin (30k/cuft). Otherwise you would not get 0 gpg soft water until you do them.

Undoing the cable ties on the drain line may allow carbon out of the resin tank during backwash unless there is a top basket in the tank. If that happens you'll get carbon up in the valve and might have to take it apart to clean it out. So closing the main water shut off valve all but closed may be a good idea while testing the valve operation. Backwash usually is no more than 15-20 minutes. Brine draw/slow rinse can be 60 minutes or more. Rapid rinse like 5-10 minutes and refill maybe up to 15 minutes.

OK, Gary, tonight is the night. It's after midnight now and will likely be 1 am or later by the time I finish this note. The water used dial is setting at "0", which I was hoping means that the regeneration cycle should happen tonight. I will check it just before I go to bed, but will not wait up till 2 or 3 am in the morning, because it might not regenerate until tomorrow night -- just don't know.

Regarding the dial on the back side of the controller, yes it is white, with a comment that 1 pin equals 2 minutes. The dial goes from 0->160 and I have 6 pins between 0 and 10 (probably 0-12), another 6 beginning at 70 and another 2 pins at about 110 -- I have no idea what any of them mean. I laid my cut/removed cable ties around and on the little black cam type wheel (a wheel with raised notches that control some sort of solenoid switch) so that tomorrow I will know if that wheel cycled through 360 degrees tonight.

Gary, sorry, but I don't understand how opening up my drain line could cause a problem. I can't think of a reason in the world that the guys that installed would take a 5/8-3/4 fairly stiff hard rubber hose and pinch it almost closed with a cable tie. The hose was closed so much that if any or the resin did escape the tank, I am sure that it would have plugged the drain line -- although the activity in the tank had to be sorely muted because of the reduced water flow through the hose.

I am probably repeating myself, but the reason I am so worried about the regeneration cycle is that in the past, as I mentioned, I used to have a lot of water in the brine tank and the water was always above the salt level, even though I had 3-4 (maybe 5) bags of salt in the tank. Occasionally, I would have the salt above the water line, but after a regeneration cycle, the water was usually always above the salt (with the salt at a level that the guy that installed the system marked for me on the big white tube/pipe in the brine tank). Right now, I have purposely let the salt get real low and there is about 3 inches of salt in 6 inches of water, the salt resting on the platform in the bottom of the brine tank, which I think is 4-5-6 inches above the bottom of the brine tank, so there is another 4-5-6 of water there.

So Gary, will/should the brine draw cycle empty the water totally out of the tank -- or as you say, if it is timed, I guess it will just take a fixed amount of water out of the tank, providing there is enough water in the tank to take out. And on the brine refill, is the controller set up to replace just the same amount of water that it took out -- and again, if totally timed, I guess it should put water back in for the time period that it took it out -- and I suppose the controller is smart enough to compensate for pressure in, pressure out. I mentioned that I was playing with the brine line when playing around with the regeneration cycle and during the draw cycle, there was not a lot of suction in the brine line and during the fill cycle, the water just sort of drained out of the tube with little or no pressure. And again, I have no idea what the suction in or pressure out should be.

it is a little after 1 am now and I just checked and nothing is going on yet, so I think I will give it up for the night. I might stay up, but my wife has one of those fun colonoscopy's in the morning, so I think I had better be there for that. I think I have enough things set up to see if the regeneration ran, but honestly, I am not sure just how to verify what went on. With the limited amount of salt in the brine tank, I should probably fill it back with salt and do a manual generation -- and when I do that, I will likely be back seeking help on what I should be seeing. ron in round rock

Sponsor · 2022-01-29T12:20:58-0800

Gary Slusser · Nov 1, 2013

Not all salt water is sucked out, there is always 2.5" +/- left under the brine pick up tube in the bottom of the tank that can't be sucked out. The refill water is usually timed and the slow rinse/brine draw is always timed. Brine draw stops way before the slow rinse finishes.

Not being able to see the back/top and left side of your control valve... here is what I just told another guy with an Ionics like yours.... The most common causes of too much brine water are (in order of probability).... loose brine line connections (one on each end of the brine line and the one under the float valve in the brine well in the brine tank where the brine pickup tube connects to the valve), blocked injector or injector screen (under the brass/steel plate held on to the side of the brine valve before the brine line connection), blocked drain line, leaking brine valve (where the brine line connects to the control valve.

Salt in the tank displaces water and the more salt the higher the water level goes. Too much salt and you don't get the full refill volume of water into the tank because that float in the brine well stops the refill flow too soon and does that so salt water doesn't overflow the tank and ruin the floor. That's one reason I say not to fill a brine tank with salt.

Any of that above and you run out of capacity and get hard water instead of softened water. Then, after finding and fixing the problem(s) you do 2 manual regens at 15 lbs/cuft of resin one after the other with no water use during or between them to fully regenerate all the resin back to 30k/cuft.

Resin 'beads' are less than a 1/16" dia and rarely can block up a scrunched up drain line. Neither does carbon.

rnsmithtldiy · Nov 1, 2013

Gary- Well something happened overnight. I "think" the system went through regeneration because the water and salt levels are different this morning. The following changes are noted:
- Water counter is back to its beginning point at 1400 (from 0)
- Water level in the brine tank is about 3 inches above the bottom plastic platform now (was 6 inches last night)
- Salt level is in brine tank is about 2 inches above the bottom plastic platform now (was 3 inches last night)
So it appears to me that more water was taken out of the brine tank than was put back in. That's a problem, isn't it?

I don't even know how that could happen -- i.e. how did the water ever get higher in the first place EXCEPT last week when I became alarmed because the water level seemed so low (way down below the salt level), I dumped a bunch of water into the brine tank, somewhere around 4-5 gallons -- so maybe that explains my question of how did the water get higher than what was being put back in. So what is my next step? I am assuming/hoping that this is something that can be fixed.

I know I can/should take the brine hose off and check it for some clogging, but I know it is not entirely clogged since it is working, just not that well. Then there is the lack of any water pressure to speak of when re-filling the brine tank -- should there be some water pressure at that point. (The suction in the brine draw cycle isn't that great either, but it is obviously sucking more water out of the tank than is being put back in -- at least that's what appears to me that is what is happening.) Is there something in the controller/valve area that could cause this -- something that can be taken apart and cleaned or replaced. For some reason I am discounting a difference in the timing for each of these cycles since it used to work just fine. I believe you Gary, but I guess I am a little surprised that the whole system is run on a timed basis, particular the water in and water out cycles. It seems to me that over time one of the other would win out (i.e. over time, either too much water or too little water).

So is there anything else I should/can check before I start taking things apart. I know the water is not coming close to raising the float up high enough for it to shut off the brine fill cycle. I hate to mention this because I think it is impossible for the brine float adjustment to slip on its own, but earlier this summer, I can't remember why, I decided to clean out the brine tank. So I emptied it entirely and in the process, pulled out the float and everything else in the than. Anyway, I found that the float was set so low that only a few inches of water in the tank would have caused the brine fill cycle to shut off. That's why I hate to mention it because I don't know how it ever worked. I re-adjusted and raised the float at least a foot, probably more -- but still had the cutoff point way below the little drain hole on the side of the brine tank. Gary, regarding your comment about too much salt raising the water level too high, maybe the salt packs together much more than I realize and a small amount of water in the tank can rise to a high level with a lot of salt. I used to think that the tank had a lot of water in it.

OK, enough of me talking. I would appreciate suggestions on my next step. Is the manual regeneration cycle identical to the automatic regeneration cycle? Should I be doing some manual regens and be measuring and recording things (like add a bunch of water to the tank so that I could measure how much is being drawn out and measuring the time for this to occur, as well as make the same measurements for water going back into the tank) -- just thinking out loud. ron in round rock

rnsmithtldiy · Nov 5, 2013

Gary Slusser said:
Not all salt water is sucked out, there is always 2.5" +/- left under the brine pick up tube in the bottom of the tank that can't be sucked out. The refill water is usually timed and the slow rinse/brine draw is always timed. Brine draw stops way before the slow rinse finishes.

Salt in the tank displaces water and the more salt the higher the water level goes. Too much salt and you don't get the full refill volume of water into the tank because that float in the brine well stops the refill flow too soon and does that so salt water doesn't overflow the tank and ruin the floor. That's one reason I say not to fill a brine tank with salt.

Any of that above and you run out of capacity and get hard water instead of softened water. Then, after finding and fixing the problem(s) you do 2 manual regens at 15 lbs/cuft of resin one after the other with no water use during or between them to fully regenerate all the resin back to 30k/cuft.

-------------------
Gary - OK, I did it -- and I found the problem that I was worried about -- except it may not be a problem, it might just be me not understanding the various water cycles.

I have over 4 pages of notes, that I won't type in and bore everyone, particularly to you guys that know what is going on. So to keep it simple. let me just mention the things troubling me.

A complete Regen cycle takes about 170 minutes (i.e. almost 3 hours)
The 1st step, the Back Wash only lasted about 12 minutes
Next was the Brine Draw which lasted about 60 minutes
- I have figured out that this is probably controlled by the 6 pins at 0-12 and another 6 pins
- beginning at 70 on the big white wheel in the back of the controller
Next was the Brine Draw cycle:
- The water was down 5 inches within 15 minutes and down to the salt level within 20 minutes
- and the tank was essentially sucked dry within 35-40 minutes of the beginning of the Brine Draw
(this was roughly 14 inches, or roughly 21 gallons of water)
- The brine hose continued trying to suck more water out during the next 20-25 minutes of the Brine
- Draw cycle, so I know it would have continued to suck water out if any had been left in the tank
(I equate tank with 2 inches of water left in it as being empty, as you noted above)
OK, next was what I think is called the Rapid Rinse cycle - which lasted about 12 minutes
- Again, triggered by the 6 pins on the big white wheel
And Finally (almost finally), there was the Brine Fill, which lasted about 30 minutes
- During the roughly 25-30 minute Brine Fill, the water was raised to about 2 inches above the platform/shelf
- in the bottom of the tank (for a total of about 8 inches of water being added to the tank, approx. 12 gallons).
Then there was another 4 minutes (2 pins on the big white wheel) for something (may for everything to stabilize, don't know)
Followed by another 60 minutes where nothing was going on
- I guess just to let the big white wheel get back to its starting position

So here are my comments and questions (comments first):
The Brine Draw cycle will always take a lot more water (brine) out of the tank that it puts beck into the tank (i.e. 21 gallons out and 12 gallons in). This means that for the next Regeneration cycle, only 12 gallons can be drawn out of the tank -- and that I believe is the most that can every be used during any Brine Draw cycle since that is all the is ever put back into the tank (UNLESS there was supposed to have been more water put back into the tank via much more water pressure during the 25-30 minute Brine Fill cycle).

Let me comment (confess) something here. Before I started the Manual Regeneration cycle, there was only 2 inches of salt in the tank resting on the shelf/platform in the bottom of the tank. The water was an inch or two above the salt. I wanted to watch and measure what was going on during the Regeneration cycle, so I added several gallons of water to the tank -- raising the water level to maybe 8 inches above the platform in the bottom of the tank thinking that the extra water would not hurt anything and I could measure how much water was sucked out of the tank during the Brine Draw cycle -- and was very surprised when all of the water was sucked out of the tank within the first 35-40 minutes of the brine draw cycle. As I mentioned above, had there been more water in the tank, that would have been sucked out also as there was suction on the brine line during the entire 60 minutes of the Brine Draw cycle. I have notes on noises in the controller and water draining out, but don't think what is germane to what is going on here.

I know the system has never been re-programmed (yet), so I have to assume that it was set up this way -- and that the Brine Draw cycle will always empty the tank and that there will only be about 12 gallons of water replaced in the tank. So is my system working after all. I have not refilled it yet with salt, but as I mentioned, the water level is only about 2 inches above the platform in the bottom of the tank -- and I KNOW that when used to fill it, when I had 2 or 3 (maybe 4) sacks of salt pellets in the tank, I could still see the water level. I suppose I will find out when I put more salt in the tank, but if I add 3 more bags of salt to the tank, is it reasonable to think that the pellets pack together enough that the water will be still be visible above the level of the salt.

OK, back to the real question. Is this cycle normal. Is the ability to suck out maybe 30 gallons (or more) of water out of the brine tank and the ability to only return 12 gallons to the tank during the Brine Fill cycle sound like this thing is working. I have lots of notes about what was going on if you have any other question. Thanks. ron in round rock

P.S. This P.S. added via an edit the next morning. Sorry, I forgot one other question having to do with the Brine Draw cycle. Since the cycle lasts 60 minutes and the Brine Draw cycle has sucked the Brine tank empty in maybe 35-40 minutes, what is happening the other 25 minutes or so. The water keeps flowing out of the drain hose during this period, so I am assuming that during the rest of the cycle, the controller is getting water from the water input pipe coming into the house. The point I am asking about here is, since the brine tank is empty, there isn't any additional brine to be used for the Back Wash (I guess this is not a Back Wash, is it -- it is more of a resin clean cycle), so the system must just be using untreated water during this period -- which I would think is maybe using up some of the softening capacity of the resin since the brine solution has already cleaned up the resin. So I am confused again. So exactly what is going on with extra 25 minutes of the Brine Draw cycle. Is this the way it is supposed to work. ron in round rock

Mialynette2003 · Nov 6, 2013

rnsmithtldiy said:
Gary Slusser said:

OK, back to the real question. Is this cycle normal. Is the ability to suck out maybe 30 gallons (or more) of water out of the brine tank and the ability to only return 12 gallons to the tank during the Brine Fill cycle sound like this thing is working. I have lots of notes about what was going on if you have any other question. Thanks. ron in round rock

Click to expand...

The unit will draw water as long as there is water to be drawn. Once the unit goes into a draw cycle, it will continue to draw for the entire brine draw time. What stops the water from being drawn is the air check. Once the brine water level reaches the "check height", the check ball seats stoping water and/or air from being drawn into the system. I lived in the RR area for 13 yrs before moving to Fla.

rnsmithtldiy · Nov 6, 2013

mialynette2003 said:
rnsmithtldiy said:

The unit will draw water as long as there is water to be drawn. Once the unit goes into a draw cycle, it will continue to draw for the entire brine draw time. What stops the water from being drawn is the air check. Once the brine water level reaches the "check height", the check ball seats stoping water and/or air from being drawn into the system. I lived in the RR area for 13 yrs before moving to Fla.

Click to expand...

mialynette- Wow, what an early response to my long post. I added a P.S. to my post (via an edit) this morning because I just remembered this morning that I was still confused about the Brine Draw cycle (as well as the shorter fill time). I understand what you just said, which verifies that my system is acting correctly during this cycle (i.e. draws water until tank empty) -- but what is going on with the remaining 25 minutes-or-so where the water is still being flushed through the tank (i.e. I guess, since water is still coming out of the drain hose). Is this normal. It appears to me that the controller is forcing a constantly diluted brine solution through the resin, maybe to the point that the resin is cleaned up and begins to start its softening during this 25 minutes. Can that be possible. Is it normal to have this cycle run for, in my case 25 minutes after all the brine solution has been drawn out of the brine tank. ron in round rock

Gary Slusser · Nov 6, 2013

Yes it sounds as if it is working as it should.

The time that the regeneration runs for is up to the contact switch finger falling off the last of those last 2 pins on the pin wheel. They get everything (the piston and brine valve) back to Service. Usually in not more than 75-90 minutes and the regen is done but the wheel takes longer to get back to the beginning.

I suggest not filling the salt tank because not filling it causes you to check the salt tank for excess water more frequently than every few months.

We all were posting at the same time... the time past the time it takes for the air check to check is slow rinse. It is used to flush the resin with brine and start to get it out of the resin tank. Then Rinse compacts the resin bed and makes sure all salt water is out of the resin bed before going into Brine Refill and back into Service.

rnsmithtldiy · Nov 6, 2013

Gary Slusser said:
Yes it sounds as if it is working as it should.

The time that the regeneration runs for is up to the contact switch finger falling off the last of those last 2 pins on the pin wheel. They get everything (the piston and brine valve) back to Service. Usually in not more than 75-90 minutes and the regen is done but the wheel takes longer to get back to the beginning.

I suggest not filling the salt tank because not filling it causes you to check the salt tank for excess water more frequently than every few months.

We all were posting at the same time... the time past the time it takes for the air check to check is slow rinse. It is used to flush the resin with brine and start to get it out of the resin tank. Then Rinse compacts the resin bed and makes sure all salt water is out of the resin bed before going into Brine Refill and back into Service.

Gary- The good news for me is your opening statement: "sounds like it is working like it should".

OK, I don't want to keep filling up the brine tank either (although I thought that to be a temporary fix if something was broken) -- I just did that to see if I could trace what was going on.

So, I think/guess what you are saying is that the 8 inches of water (which I calculated to be about 12 gallons or water) above the 2 inches of water always left in the brine tank, being put back into the brine tank during the 25-30 minute Brine Fill cycle is good enough -- good enough to make a brine solution (heaviest enough of a brine concentration) to adequately do a good regeneration of the resin on the next regeneration cycle.

Based on what I saw/timed, if there was only 12 gallons (because that is all the Brine Fill puts back in, and all it will ever put back in) in the brine tank when the Brine Draw cycle started, the entire brine tank would be emptied within the first 20-25 minutes of the Brine Draw cycle -- giving it another 35 minutes-or-so in the slow rinse cycle (I guess this is maybe why they call it a "slow" rinse cycle). Not knowing "exactly" how this stuff is supposed to work, this seems strange to me.

But I think you are saying that this time is OK and is really necessary to get all of the brine solution out of the resin -- am I understanding what you are saying correctly or have I said that right. Sorry I am so anal about understanding exactly what is going on. ron in round rock

Mialynette2003 · Nov 6, 2013

Think about the brining cycle being divided up into 2 sections: Brine and Slow Rinse. As long as there is water being drawn from the brine tank it is considered to be in the brine draw cycle. Once the water is gone, even though the unit has not advanced, it is now in the slow rinse cycle. So the entire cycle is about 60 min, it is divided into about 20 min for the brining and 40 min for the slow rinse.

Gary Slusser · Nov 7, 2013

Ron... one more time. Tell me the number of holes, the number of pins, number of holes, number of pins etc. and nothing more. I.E. 5 holes, 6 pins, 30 holes, etc..

Then, see if you can find a sticker that says .5gpm/1.5lbs/min by the drain line connection on the control valve and tell me what it says, and nothing more.

Then I can tell you the salt dose lbs, and how close to your 12 gals of refill water you are.

To see an animation of a softener's internal working, click this link...
http://www.kenmorewater.com/ then Click Soft Water, Tank System, Process and then the Green right arrow until it goes away and then the Service Cycle + button.

Your system doesn't work exactly like that but it's close. You have backwash, slow rinse/brine draw, Rinse, Refill. You don't get Pre Refill with softened water (they aren't showing a 2 hr pause after Refill), you have Post Refill (at the end of a Regeneration) with hard water.

BTW, If you have a .5 gpm sticker, your 12 gallons of refill would be 18 lbs of salt per regeneration, which would be (as they say) turrible salt efficiency.

rnsmithtldiy · Nov 7, 2013

Gary Slusser said:
Ron... one more time. Tell me the number of holes, the number of pins, number of holes, number of pins etc. and nothing more. I.E. 5 holes, 6 pins, 30 holes, etc..

Then, see if you can find a sticker that says .5gpm/1.5lbs/min by the drain line connection on the control valve and tell me what it says, and nothing more.

Then I can tell you the salt dose lbs, and how close to your 12 gals of refill water you are.

To see an animation of a softener's internal working, click this link...
http://www.kenmorewater.com/ then Click Soft Water, Tank System, Process and then the Green right arrow until it goes away and then the Service Cycle + button.

Your system doesn't work exactly like that but it's close. You have backwash, slow rinse/brine draw, Rinse, Refill. You don't get Pre Refill with softened water (they aren't showing a 2 hr pause after Refill), you have Post Refill (at the end of a Regeneration) with hard water.

BTW, If you have a .5 gpm sticker, your 12 gallons of refill would be 18 lbs of salt per regeneration, which would be (as they say) turrible salt efficiency.

Gary, Thanks - you are way ahead of me -- I was going to ask for help in attacking the salt concentration and efficiency business next now that we have determined that my controller may not be broken after all. Thanks for telling me specifically what you needed. I will try to get that information for you later tonight. ron in round rock

rnsmithtldiy · Nov 7, 2013

Gary Slusser said:
Ron... one more time. Tell me the number of holes, the number of pins, number of holes, number of pins etc. and nothing more. I.E. 5 holes, 6 pins, 30 holes, etc..

Then, see if you can find a sticker that says .5gpm/1.5lbs/min by the drain line connection on the control valve and tell me what it says, and nothing more.

Then I can tell you the salt dose lbs, and how close to your 12 gals of refill water you are.

Gary, thanks for helping with this. Yes-Yes-Yes, I found the stickers you have been asking about. It was where you said, at the joint where the brine line is connected to the control valve. But first, a confession (surprised you or someone didn't jump me about it). When I converted cu in to cu ft, I divided by 1278 instead of 1728. So 1" of water in an 18" tank is actually 1.1 gallons (not 1.5). So the Brine Draw is 8" of Fill water x 1.1 or about 9 gallons (not 12).

So here are the things you asked for. The big white wheel has 83 holes (counting the "0" hole) and the numbers on it go from 0-164 (2 min / hole).
0 - 10 6 pins
12 - 70 30 holes
72 - 82 6 pins
84 - 112 15 holes
114 - 116 2 pins
118 - 164 24 holes

The sticker on the brine hose connection says:
.25 GPM
.75 LB
SALT/MIN.

Brine Draw is approx. 9 gallons

ron in round rock

Gary Slusser · Nov 8, 2013

Ron... I don't care (it doesn't matter) how many inches of water you have in the salt tank and neither should you UNLESS you are never going to have any salt in it and just want unimportant stuff clogging yer thinkin'.

Now Ron I luv ya'n all BUT I'm thinking ya just might be like an engineer'er something...... maybe it's just old guy me... tell me how to read "0 - 10 6 pins" when I said; Tell me the number of holes, the number of pins, number of holes, number of pins etc. and nothing more. I.E. 5 holes, 6 pins, 30 holes, etc.. Rethinking that... do not tell me, read below.

Ya see, dumb me I read 0 - 10 as maybe 11 holes with 6 pins somewhere in the 11 holes. OR, 11 holes and then 6 pins.... maybe 0 - 10 is minutes... but then 0 - 10 @ 2 minutes/hole or pin would be 22 minutes and I didn't ask for minutes.

So, now starting over, and at the first hole/pin (0), if there are no pins tell me, X holes, X pins, on and on until there are no more pins. I don't care or need to know how many holes after the last 2 pins, and you don't either.

Your Refill is being done at .25gpm OR .75 lbs of salt per minute and probably during the last set of holes BEFORE the last 2 pins and nothing else like how many inches of water in an empty salt tank of whatever shape or size.

rnsmithtldiy · Nov 8, 2013

Gary Slusser said:
Ron... I don't care (it doesn't matter) how many inches of water you have in the salt tank and neither should you UNLESS you are never going to have any salt in it and just want unimportant stuff clogging yer thinkin'.

Now Ron I luv ya'n all BUT I'm thinking ya just might be like an engineer'er something...... maybe it's just old guy me... tell me how to read "0 - 10 6 pins" when I said; Tell me the number of holes, the number of pins, number of holes, number of pins etc. and nothing more. I.E. 5 holes, 6 pins, 30 holes, etc.. Rethinking that... do not tell me, read below.

Ya see, dumb me I read 0 - 10 as maybe 11 holes with 6 pins somewhere in the 11 holes. OR, 11 holes and then 6 pins.... maybe 0 - 10 is minutes... but then 0 - 10 @ 2 minutes/hole or pin would be 22 minutes and I didn't ask for minutes.

So, now starting over, and at the first hole/pin (0), if there are no pins tell me, X holes, X pins, on and on until there are no more pins. I don't care or need to know how many holes after the last 2 pins, and you don't either.

Your Refill is being done at .25gpm OR .75 lbs of salt per minute and probably during the last set of holes BEFORE the last 2 pins and nothing else like how many inches of water in an empty salt tank of whatever shape or size.

OK, Gary -- sorry if that was confusing. I thought all of these dials were probably the same -- each hole/mark on the dial representing 2 minutes.

OK, so here it is again, from the hole marked "0" on the dial (same pin/hole count without the numbers):

no holes
6 pins
30 holes
6 pins
15 holes
2 pins

ron in round rock

Gary Slusser · Nov 8, 2013

OK, if I have it right, 12 minutes of backwash, then 60 for slow rinse/brine draw, then 12 for Rapid Rinse and 30 minutes for Refill, @ .25 gpm or 3/4 lb per minute. You get 3 lbs dissolved per gallon of refill.

The salt dose depends on the K of capacity you have to regenerate. And that depends on the cuft volume of resin you have. Check out the Click Here link in my signature for more on that. You need a 24 hr reserve.

rnsmithtldiy · Nov 8, 2013

Gary Slusser said:
OK, if I have it right, 12 minutes of backwash, then 60 for slow rinse/brine draw, then 12 for Rapid Rinse and 30 minutes for Refill, @ .25 gpm or 3/4 lb per minute. You get 3 lbs dissolved per gallon of refill.

The salt dose depends on the K of capacity you have to regenerate. And that depends on the cuft volume of resin you have. Check out the Click Here link in my signature for more on that. You need a 24 hr reserve.

Gary, Thanks. I understand the math.

.25 gal/min x 30 min = 7.5 gal
.75 lbs salt/min x 30 min = 22.5 lbs salt
22.5 lbs salt / 7.5 gal = 3 lbs salt/gal

I get everything except the .75 lbs salt/min -- when it is just water going back into the brine tank for 30 min (i.e. how did they come up with that particular figure -- i.e. could it have been anything other than .75 lbs salt/min). I think I am missing something.

I know (I think anyway) it has to do with dissolution of the salt in the water (max dissolution or something like that).

Anyway, let me study the information at your link more thoroughly (have already read through it a couple of times) and get back with a more specific question if I still have trouble understanding what is going on.

ron in round rock

Gary Slusser · Nov 9, 2013

Ron, a gallon of water can dissolve 3 lbs of salt; actually it's 2.7 lbs. but it is stated as 3 lbs. So if you add .25 gpm for X minutes you can calculate how many gallons of water and how many lbs of salt is dissolved into brine to be used each regeneration. It is what it is and as far as I know, it can't be any other way since your resin is sodium form resin.

For your size softener it is using WAY too much salt. I, as I'm sure you do too, know that softeners work, so I suggest you quit trying to understand how it all works and simply set the thing up to do the best job it can regardless of how it does it and get on with life.

rnsmithtldiy · Nov 9, 2013

Gary Slusser said:
Ron, a gallon of water can dissolve 3 lbs of salt; actually it's 2.7 lbs. but it is stated as 3 lbs. So if you add .25 gpm for X minutes you can calculate how many gallons of water and how many lbs of salt is dissolved into brine to be used each regeneration. It is what it is and as far as I know, it can't be any other way since your resin is sodium form resin.

For your size softener it is using WAY too much salt. I, as I'm sure you do too, know that softeners work, so I suggest you quit trying to understand how it all works and simply set the thing up to do the best job it can regardless of how it does it and get on with life.

OK, I am getting closer, I guess.

Regarding your comments, I guess going by the .25 gal/min Brine Fill rate x 30 minutes, I must have 7.5 gallons going into the Brine tank -- and at 3 lbs per gallon, that is 22.5 lbs of salt per Regeneration -- and that does sound like a lot. So what should it be. If the 3 lbs per gallon of water does not change, then I guess I should reduce the amount of water going into the Brine tank by shortening the Brine Fill Time -- which I now know how to do.

So what would a good reasonable amount of gallons I should be allowing to go into the Brine tank.

And sorry, but I don't want to quit trying to understand how everything works. As I just stated, I know how to program the various cycle times now, which was one of my complaints when I started this thread. And by the way, where does this 3 lbs per gallon of water come from. I assume it is some sort of maximum dissolution of salt in water, some sort of salt saturation formula or something like that. But to be honest, I have spent most of the day on the internet trying to find some sort of documentation on salt saturation and have been unsuccessful -- so can you or someone point me to a source for this information.

Thanks. Learning and loving it. ron in round rock

Reach4 · Nov 9, 2013

These should help regarding where the 3 lbs per gallon of water comes from:

Try http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_chloride in the table...

http://www.oocities.org/capecanaveral/campus/5361/chlorate/nacl.html

http://www.mrjgrom.com/source/matter3_unit/WS-SolubilityChart.pdf

Commercial installation vs DIY (replacing existing IQ-0820 system)

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