Salt Dosage and Fleck 6700XTR, or any head for that matter

ditttohead · Jul 2, 2012

Due to the poor efficiency of timeclock softeners and their inability to maintain accuracy in varying conditions, they are not even allowed to be sold in Californai for residential applications. I know many municipalities have also set similar rules for softeners outside of Califronia as well.

There really is never an excuse for timeclock softeners in a residential application.

That being said, an undersized metered system can also be highly inefficient as well.

Gary Slusser · Jul 2, 2012

F6Hawk said:
He's not asking about the linearity of the amount of salt used to regenerate; rather, he is asking why the time to fill is not linear, which it SHOULD be. A 2 cu ft system will require twice as much brine as a 1 cu ft system, assuming the same dosage of salt.

That is assuming the same salt efficiency in both the 1 and 2 cuft softeners and that is not how to establish how much salt to program his softener to use.

His thinking of that question is because the info he was given doesn't make sense, and that's because the figures 24K - 110K represent the size of the softener and the minutes to get to the max K for each with apparently a .5 BLFC and some are in error IF the BLFC is the same in each.

The minutes of refill control the amount of water going into the salt tank where it dissolves salt at the rate of 3 lbs/gal. Double the time and you double the volume of salt dissolved/used. And you say that has nothing to do with salt used to regenerate...

Haven't you and I done our best to correct his assumption that slow rinse/brine draw sets the salt dose? Now he gets it but rightfully so questions the info he received from the dealer, which doesn't help him determine what salt dose would be best for him so I replied accordingly.

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Gary Slusser · Jul 2, 2012

F6Hawk said:
There is a huge difference... using the metered valve, your estimated GPPPD has no effect on the system, other than the aforementioned days between regens.

ummm isn't the number of days between regenerations what we are talking about?

How do you program a day timer differently than a metered softener and what water and salt savings would the average family have?

F6Hawk said:
In a timed system, your GPPPD actually DEFINES the days you set between regens, and can be terribly inaccurate if you don't properly estimate your usage.

Then pretend if you have to that we didn't screw up on the estimate of usage.

F6Hawk said:
For example, if one were to use a 60 GPPPD estimate and program the timer accordingly, but only had a 40 GPPPD's worth of use, then salt will be wasted every regen, making the system very inefficient, particularly at the higher salt concentrations.

That is assuming another error in sizing or at least programming.

My experience with people insisting they used less than 60 gals/day/person is that they ended up calculating way too low and having to redo their programming to 60 gals/day/person and doing 2 back to back regenerations at the max of 15lbs/cuft to regenerate the resin fully.

Tom Sawyer · Jul 2, 2012

I would not go less than 60gpd either. Quite a few folks "think" their usage is less but as Gary said, most times their estimate is way lower than the reality besides which it is better to estimate slightly high than low. Here, I use 75 because experience tells me that in the northeast folks don't think much about water conservation. We don't have drought conditions too often and if we do it generally only effects those with dug wells or points. It's not unusual for teenagers to take 45 minute showers twice a day either.

ditttohead · Jul 2, 2012

Agreed, estimating less than 60 GPD should not be done as it is an "estimate" and estimating high for this type of equipment is better than underestimating. Most modern metered systems will have a history and a meter reading that you can use to see what the water usage is daily. My family uses way less than 60 GPPPD, but we also have every water saving component made, including touchless faucets, ultra low flush toilets, HE laundry, etc, and the kids are in private school most of the day, and we both work full time ,and we are rarely at home on the weekends.

F6Hawk · Jul 2, 2012

Yes, yes, and yes. I agree that going higher is better than going low, when sizing a system. When I did mine, based on all of the advice here, I used 60 GPPPD. See, I listen!! But... here we are talking about he difference between meters and clocks, because he already has his system in place, and is trying to understand how to set it up more efficiently. He KNOWS he uses less than 60/75. Granted, the average person looking to purchase a softener would not know this, unless they had a meter they were actuallt tracking usage with.

"How do you program a day timer differently than a metered softener and what water and salt savings would the average family have?"
Surely you know the difference, and you are just pulling my chain? But I will humor you... with a clock, one estimates the GPPPD, decides how many days they want per regen as wel.l as how much salt ot use per cu ft, and program accordingly. Using a hardness of 15 gpg, salt at 8 lbs/cu ft, and 60 GPPPD, I can set my days between regens at 9 and feel comfortable that I won't get hard water (unless I go over my 1-day reserve of 3600, or exceed my SFR, of course). In a perfect world, this would be just great.

But now let's say that instead of 60 GPPPD, I am using 40. I could either step down to 4 lbs of salt with the same days between regens, or I could up my days between to 14, and still be ok. But since we are on a clock, and have no idea of our usage, and don't update the programming accordingly, we are now wasting salt. About 12,000 grains per regen. (or days, if you consider we COULD HAVE gone 5 more days between regens) But if we were using a metered valve, that difference would be not be wasted since the computer knows we had that extra 12,000 grains based on lower gallons used per day, correct?

Using the clocked 9/60 numbers, one would expend 487 lbs of salt per year, and using the same settings, but having the computer change it automatically to 14/40, one would consume 317 lbs of salt per year, or 160# less. Seems a bit more efficient in my book; wouldn't you agree?

F6Hawk · Jul 2, 2012

Gary Slusser said:
That is assuming the same salt efficiency in both the 1 and 2 cuft softeners and that is not how to establish how much salt to program his softener to use.

The minutes of refill control the amount of water going into the salt tank where it dissolves salt at the rate of 3 lbs/gal. Double the time and you double the volume of salt dissolved/used.

And THAT is exactly what he is referring to that should be linear, the amount of water (and hence salt) that needs to be put into the resin each regen. A 48K tank SHOULD take exactly twice as much refill time as a 24K tank, given that the salt dose is the same.

But therein lies the problem with those numbers he quoted; we have no idea what the seller intended for dosing each of those numbers; and clearly, they were NOT designed for his .125 BLFC.

Gary Slusser said:
And you say that has nothing to do with salt used to regenerate...

When did I say that?

Gary Slusser · Jul 2, 2012

F6Hawk said:
here we are talking about he difference between meters and clocks, because he already has his system in place, and is trying to understand how to set it up more efficiently.

He KNOWS he uses less than 60/75. Granted, the average person looking to purchase a softener would not know this, unless they had a meter they were actuallt tracking usage with.

Actually he came up with less than 60gals/day/person based on an average of the last number of months on his city water meter; IIRC 4-5 months but...

F6Hawk said:
"How do you program a day timer differently than a metered softener and what water and salt savings would the average family have?"
Surely you know the difference, and you are just pulling my chain? But I will humor you... with a clock, one estimates the GPPPD, decides how many days they want per regen as wel.l as how much salt ot use per cu ft, and program accordingly. Using a hardness of 15 gpg, salt at 8 lbs/cu ft, and 60 GPPPD, I can set my days between regens at 9 and feel comfortable that I won't get hard water (unless I go over my 1-day reserve of 3600, or exceed my SFR, of course). In a perfect world, this would be just great.

You can do the same thing with a day timer.

F6Hawk said:
But now let's say that instead of 60 GPPPD, I am using 40. I could either step down to 4 lbs of salt with the same days between regens, or I could up my days between to 14, and still be ok. But since we are on a clock, and have no idea of our usage, and don't update the programming accordingly, we are now wasting salt. About 12,000 grains per regen. (or days, if you consider we COULD HAVE gone 5 more days between regens)

But if we were using a metered valve, that difference would be not be wasted since the computer knows we had that extra 12,000 grains based on lower gallons used per day, correct?

You can set the days on an electronic day timer to 14 etc. too, and you still have the 24 hr reserve.

F6Hawk said:
Using the clocked 9/60 numbers, one would expend 487 lbs of salt per year, and using the same settings, but having the computer change it automatically to 14/40, one would consume 317 lbs of salt per year, or 160# less. Seems a bit more efficient in my book; wouldn't you agree?

The computer doesn't change anything, you have to change the programing in the computer and with metered, it is all based on the K of capacity and relates to gallons on the meter. With a day timer you use the same numbers you programed the metered unit with but there is no gallons, just days.

If the two are the same size and you program them the same, and use the same gals per day, they will both regenerate on the same day, with the same lbs of salt and water used.

F6Hawk · Jul 2, 2012

Gary Slusser said:
Actually he came up with less than 60gals/day/person based on an average of the last number of months on his city water meter; IIRC 4-5 months but...
But a calculated average is much more accurate than an estimated average, right?

You can set the days on an electronic day timer to 14 etc. too, and you still have the 24 hr reserve.
Yes, IF you know what your actual usage is, not what you estimated. With a clock, you must CHANGE the days to 14, IF you notice your usage and re-calculate the required days; with a metered valve, it happens AUTOMATICALLY, with no interaction or even knowledge of usage by the owner.

The computer doesn't change anything, you have to change the programing in the computer and with metered, it is all based on the K of capacity and relates to gallons on the meter. With a day timer you use the same numbers you programed the metered unit with but there is no gallons, just days.
The computer doesn't CHANGE anything, but it does know the gallons used, which a clock does not, and therefore will give longer regen times IFF THE DAILY USAGE IS LESS THAN ESTIMATED.

If the two are the same size and you program them the same, and use the same gals per day, they will both regenerate on the same day, with the same lbs of salt and water used.

I just gave you an example of how they would regenerate on different days, and using differing amounts of salt. Not sure what I was unclear about above. I even provided numbers to show the salt savings.

I am sure you must know what I am saying here, since you have been "in the trades" for so many years, and have helped program both types of valves. Unless I am missing something about programming a clock-based valve; if I am, anyone here feel free to enlighten me as to my error(s).

F6Hawk · Jul 2, 2012

Gary Slusser said:
Actually he came up with less than 60gals/day/person based on an average of the last number of months on his city water meter; IIRC 4-5 months but...

cgarai said:
60 or 75 GPDP doesn't make much difference to me. For the past year we have averaged 100 GPD for four persons. This system is going in a bigger house, but it is still the same 4 people. I ran sizing calcs the system both at 25 GPDP and 40 GPDP just in case.

Looks like he got a pretty accurate average over more than a few months. Definitely NOT your normal consumer here!!

Gary Slusser · Jul 3, 2012

He's no different than about 90+% of the people that bought from me online for about 8 yrs until I quit selling online.

And he's no different than the thousands of guys I communicated with online since Jan 1997 that didn't buy from me.

That's just my online experience, I started selling softeners locally in 1988, went broke in 6 months or so and got back in it in 1989 as an employee for an old fairly large farm supply retail chain store. Was fired there just days before the end of my first year although out of 78 locations I was #2 in sales and then I became an independent dealer until 2 yrs ago.

As far as I can recall your experience is based on a few months of you owning your first ever softener and reading 'things' on the internet....

In my experience a knowledgeable estimate is much more accurate than an average based on water company metered usage and especially when you are going to install the softener in a bigger house than your last year's average water use is based on but...

You're right IF you don't program both type softeners the same, one will regenerate more frequently than the other; and it will be the metered one IF your water usage varies instead of being consistent and within the estimated 60 gals/day/person. And the next time you want to discuss something I said that you think is wrong, make sure you take what I said in the context I said it.

Tom Sawyer · Jul 3, 2012

I think there is a tendency for some folks to over complicate things and no doubt there are those that get satisfaction from their tinkering with things. Having sold and installed filtration equipment for over 30 years now I have to say that the vast majority of my customers are happy just having the darn thing in the basement doing it's job with as little input from them as possible. Most folks just want the equipment to work. They don't get all involved in the minutia of programming and trying to save a half teaspoon of salt or a gallon of water either. I program for the "least amount of phone calls" most of the time.

Gary Slusser · Jul 3, 2012

F6Hawk said:
"You're right IF you don't program both type softeners the same, one will regenerate more frequently than the other; and it will be the metered one IF your water usage varies instead of being consistent and within the estimated 60 gals/day/person. And the next time you want to discuss something I said that you think is wrong, make sure you take what I said in the context I said it. "

What do you feel I took out of context? I would hope that you notice I can disagree with you, and have an intelligent convo with you about it, without all the nonsense I have seen between you and others on here. I'm not pointing fingers at who said what, but it DOES take away from the forum, unfortunately. And I respect your time and knowledge in the business; it's obvious you should know more than a newbie such as myself.

But back to the original topic... either I am seriously mistaken on the differences between a clocked regen and a timer, or I am not communicating clearly what I am trying to say to you. Let me try again.

If I have programmed a clock on a 1.5 cu ft for 9 days, 15 hardness, and 60 GPPPD, it will regen every 9 days (36,000 grains) for a year, using 487 lbs of salt. Period. No variations to that, because it is based on days. If I ACTUALLY use 40 GPPPD, it would still regen every 9 days, using the same salt. But...

If I had programmed a meter for the SAME values above, it would regen every 9 days as well, IFF I consumed that 60GPPPD. But if my ACTUAL use was 40 GPPPD, the meter would then regen about every 14 days (36,000 grains), and it would only use 313 lbs of salt. I don't see how the meter would EVER regen before the clock, unless the usage went over 60 GPPPD.

The context had nothing to do with day timers; you brought day timers into the mix. It had to do with the OP programing his new valve and what gals/day/person to use. If he used 40, then program for that or 60 or 75. That is the only right way to do it.

Post 14 by you is about this;

Originally Posted by cgarai

60 or 75 GPDP doesn't make much difference to me. For the past year we have averaged 100 GPD for four persons. This system is going in a bigger house, but it is still the same 4 people. I ran sizing calcs the system both at 25 GPDP and 40 GPDP just in case. end quote and I said;

The 75, 60 or whatever gal/person/day is critical to correct programming.

And off we were taken into day timer control valves.... and I am done with it.

Salt Dosage and Fleck 6700XTR, or any head for that matter

ditttohead

Water systems designer, R&D

Gary Slusser

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Gary Slusser

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Tom Sawyer

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ditttohead

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F6Hawk

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Gary Slusser

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F6Hawk

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Gary Slusser

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Tom Sawyer

In the Trades

Gary Slusser

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