Pressure tank

Please, let's not turn these threads into CSV bashing. A CSV is certainly a viable solution to many problems and should be considered when ever the need arises.

Tom Sawyer said:

I can't find a question in your post..

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That's because I didn't use a "?" for punctuation. What I said was "I would like a few examples of such a draw on a residential system.".

While the OP was a tad vague as to what the perceived issue is, pump cycling appears to be the concern. There was not enough info WRT pump size and water usage pattern to know how often the pump is cycling.

So, now you are digressing to the argument that regardless of high cycling, pumps last for decades. Some do, and some don't. I guess the ones that don't are your repeat business. I wonder if you will still be able to say that decades from now for the majority of pumps manufactured today?

Tom Sawyer said:

Please, let's not turn these threads into CSV bashing. A CSV is certainly a viable solution to many problems and should be considered when ever the need arises.

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I see the CSV as a good product for a Oversize Pump or a Undersized Tank.


I Don't think that anyone is bashing it.


Just a difference in option, Maybe.

DonL said:

I see the CSV as a good product for a Oversize Pump or a Undersized Tank.

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No one is going to put up with a pump that doesn't produce enough water for their needs. So all pumps are "Oversized and all tanks are Undersized", which is why the CSV is the answer to so many problems.

Almost any installer can say his/her pump systems last 15-20 years. The ones you know about do last 15-20 years. Those customers are happy and called you back. Any pump installer will also know how many don’t make it through the warranty period, because they have to do those jobs over at no charge. The ones you don’t know about barely last past the warranty period. That is because the homeowner wasn’t happy about it and called somebody else. Those are the ones that reduce the average life of all pump systems.

If all pumps lasted 15 years, there wouldn’t be about a million pages on the Internet of people trying to solve pump system problems.

If you want to know the average life of pump/motors, go to a scrape yard that has a pile of motors. Check the date codes and you will see the average life of a submersible motor is still about 7 years. Just like you can buy a bearing made for 20,000 or 100,000 hours, pumps are designed to last a certain number of cycles. Pumps that cycle less, last the longest.

And it wouldn’t surprise me if a pump that lasted 25 years without a CSV would last 100 years if it had a CSV. Because no matter how long they last (1 year or 25), cycling is still most likely the cause of failure.

I read about the pump for the famous (Friends Show) fountain in Chicago. It is getting close to 100 years old now. That is because it was made of quality materials that still had lead in them, and it does not cycle.

What I'm saying or trying to say is that around here, high cycling does not seem to be much of an issue. And yes, I will freely admit that I sell pumps and install pumps and as long as the ones I install outlast the warranty I am pretty happy. Why do we expect things to last a lifetime? You buy a car and most get about 5 years out of it and then trade it in but god forbid their 20 year old fridge craps the bed. We all run out and buy new laptops, tablets and cell phones because we either "need" the latest, greatest or many times the hard drive crashes or the mother board craps out and we grumble a bit but god forbid your 60 year old furnace should decide to die on you. Well pumps run every day, day in and day out and for some reason we think that we deserve to get 40 years or more of service out of a 400 dollar item. Someone should do a life time comparison between a CSV and a normal set and see just exactly how many extra years you supposedly get but it won't be me because I have better things to do over the next 25 years or so.

Your right! Young people don't even know things are suppose to last. Unfortunately it has become a "throw away society". It will take a reversal of that trend to save the planet. Maybe someday they will at least realize that if their pump, car, and furnace lasted longer, they might be able to afford the newest "I-This or That".

Not a csv bash, but some guy posted pics of his 1956 antique jet pump and galv tank and non working air control. So thats 50 plus years with tons of cycles. If you have a 8-6 workiing family and kids at school, and no irrigation, sure seems the old system is adequate.

And some guys know how to tweak the pressure to keep the pump running at irrigation time anyway. But we are headed toward a NON-knowledgeable populace [no more popular mechanics 400 page how to fix it, how to make your metal lathe tools, how to build a radio, how to fix a flat on the highway, ad infinitum...]

I notice that my workers do not have fricking clue about oil, its types, its need on cars moving parts and hinges, clamps, tools and again hundreds of others. When you meet a guy with a 1 gallon pump up 9$ sprayer, filled with part diesel, gear oil and DELO, you have someone of the sort that made America what it is 100 years ago.

But thats out of style. Women look for Italian shoes, Calvin Klein odors, and Mercedes as signs of virility. Yet these same men could not start a fire in a blizzard when the Mercedes slid off the road on the way to Aspen. And if his kid was bleeding, he would faint afer his cell phone didnt manage a 911 call. Rome is getting fat and declining.

Some people like Fords and some prefer Chevrolets and then there are those that don't know the difference!

Have exhaustively tested

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means nothing! Many experts test improperly. A CSV is an excellent and inexpensive addition to any private water system regardless of the pump and tank sizing. It will give the consumer a constant pressure (like when taking a shower) and will extend the live of all components in the system.

The old one didn't go bad, he just changed it before it went bad.

DonL said:

So if You have a CSV, It should last for 100 Years ?

I need one of them. I must be getting old, I do not understand the problem with Old School.


Have a Great New Year Texas Wellman, and All.

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Porky said:

Some people like Fords and some prefer Chevrolets and then there are those that don't know the difference! means nothing! Many experts test improperly. A CSV is an excellent and inexpensive addition to any private water system regardless of the pump and tank sizing. It will give the consumer a constant pressure (like when taking a shower) and will extend the live of all components in the system.

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What would your parameters be for a "proper" test?

The best test would be to first put at least a half million of them out in the real world working everyday. Then give people some means of sharing information with each other all over the world. Now just sit back and see what kind of complaints, and how many complaints you hear about.

Wait a minute. We have already done that! Oh but 2012 will only be the 19th year of waiting for the complaints about Cycle Stop Valves. Maybe that just isn’t long enough.

Search hard and you may find a complaint or two. But even these will be from a misapplication, or was the fault of another component, not the CSV.

Each unhappy customer will tell a thousand people. Happy customers will rarely tell anyone. Just Google (CU301, SQE, or Subdrive). These products have not been around half as long as the CSV and you will find dozens if not hundreds of complaints on the Internet about these devices.

Most of the complaints you will find about the CSV were written by the same person, with a misapplied CSV, and a grudge against anything he didn’t think of first. This just proves my point about an unhappy customer, because this one person has told well over a thousand people about his problems with a CSV. Even then the CSV didn’t destroy anything. He just claims that it increased his electric bill from 10 to 20 bucks a month. Which also proves that you can make anything fail in some way if you set up the test to make that happen.

But go ahead and “searchâ€. List any you can find here so we can see them. You will see that the one unhappy CSV customer looks pretty foolish being the only one saying anything negative about Cycle Stop Valves. He is the kind of person who will show you a picture of his pump/motor with the spline stripped off and still try to tell you cycling is not a problem.

The only other negative things you will find is from pump installers or engineers who have never seen a CSV and are guessing that, “certain things might or should happenâ€.

19 years and counting, I guess they are still waiting for something bad to happen.

What is the warranty on the CSV. Many times that is all a person has to go by.

Real World test are good, Backing what you sell is more better.

That also tells how much Faith a company has on the product that they sell.

We have a five-year written warranty on our complete kits. We know the kits are installed correctly. But we never have any warranties. I replace a few valves as a courtesy, which are packed full of sand or have frozen and busted, but rarely a pinhole or any real defect. Send me a 19 year old CSV with any kind of manufactured defect, and I will replace it at no charge. Standing behind our product is one thing we are not afraid to do.

Also, prove to me that a properly installed CSV caused the failure of any other part of the pump system, and I will take care of that as well. How is that for a warranty?

valveman said:

We have a five-year written warranty on our complete kits. We know the kits are installed correctly. But we never have any warranties. I replace a few valves as a courtesy, which are packed full of sand or have frozen and busted, but rarely a pinhole or any real defect. Send me a 19 year old CSV with any kind of manufactured defect, and I will replace it at no charge. Standing behind our product is one thing we are not afraid to do.

Also, prove to me that a properly installed CSV caused the failure of any other part of the pump system, and I will take care of that as well. How is that for a warranty?

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Sounds Good to me, Can't beat that with a stick.


It is hard to find a product that is backed now a days.


That is the way that I do business, Return customers are the best salesman.

While a lack of customer complaints may indeed be a good thing, as a test it holds little value. Remember that Easy Water also has thousands of customers and a good many customer recommendations also for a product that does absolutely nothing. No, a real test would be (and was) a side by side comparison of the product under the exact same conditions. The testing that we did showed that although "pressure" does remain fairly constant with a CSV, under residential conditions (varied draw times and varied draw volumes) a properly sized pressure tank showed about 6% less pump cycles with run times averaging only slightly less than with a CSV installed. These draws ranged from 10 seconds to as long as 15 minutes. In both cases a long draw from a high volume source ( in our case a direct 5/8 line off the pressure tank ) caused the pump to run throughout the duration of the draw with no cycling of either system. I have never seen any published data curves based on actual random use testing published for either your product nor the ****** CSV

As far as a CSV damaging the pump I think that would be highly unlikely as restricting output actually causes the pump to draw less amperage and operate at higher velocity which theoretically should not be a problem although several pump companies did initially refuse to warranty their products should a CSV be installed in the system. As far as I know though, those restrictions have been dropped.

Tom Sawyer said:

No, a real test would be (and was) a side by side comparison of the product under the exact same conditions. The testing that we did showed that although "pressure" does remain fairly constant with a CSV, under residential conditions (varied draw times and varied draw volumes) a properly sized pressure tank showed about 6% less pump cycles with run times averaging only slightly less than with a CSV installed. These draws ranged from 10 seconds to as long as 15 minutes. In both cases a long draw from a high volume source ( in our case a direct 5/8 line off the pressure tank ) caused the pump to run throughout the duration of the draw with no cycling of either system.

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There is no set test that can be done. Everybody uses water differently. Your test had draws from 10 seconds to 15 minutes, and showed the large tank system cycled the pump only 6% less than with a CSV and small tank. A tank manufacturers test had draws of less than 7 minutes, and showed the CSV system had slightly fewer pump cycles than without one.

I have done test on homes with heat pumps, irrigations systems including drip and spray, pool and pond fills, horse stables, hog farms, etc.etc.. These tests show the CSV system to be far superior in number of cycles, equipment life, pressure delivery, costs, and many other things.

You are right that a house with two old people, one and a half bath, and no additional water uses benefits less from a CSV. But I know if you let these customers try both type systems for a week, they would say it is well worth 6% more cycles to have the luxury of constant pressure in the house. Showers are much better and the washing machine fills faster. Saving a little money and space with the small tank and CSV is just icing on the cake. 6% more cycling on a system that doesn’t cycle much anyway, is not a good excuse to deny someone constant pressure.

Tom Sawyer said:

I have never seen any published data curves based on actual random use testing published for either your product nor the ****** CSV

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I know of at least four major pump manufacturers that have tested the CSV extensively. I found out years later from retired employees of these companies that the test data was destroyed, because it showed “the CSV made pumps last longer and worked with smaller tanks”. This infuriated me and is the main reason I am so determined about this product. I could pay for some University to do a test like all the other manufacturers do. But then you get anything you pay for, which doesn’t make a good test.

Tom Sawyer said:

As far as a CSV damaging the pump I think that would be highly unlikely as restricting output actually causes the pump to draw less amperage and operate at higher velocity which theoretically should not be a problem although several pump companies did initially refuse to warranty their products should a CSV be installed in the system. As far as I know though, those restrictions have been dropped.

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You would be surprised at how many pump engineers don’t understand that restricting a pump makes its work easier.

Most of the pump and motor companies will try their best to keep you from using a CSV. Some will even say they deny warranty, but they won’t put it in writing for you, just ask. This should give you a clue as to the credibility of the pump/motor company you are dealing with, and also be the reason you should look into how a CSV really works.

I have done test on homes with heat pumps, irrigations systems including drip and spray, pool and pond fills, horse stables, hog farms, etc.etc.. These tests show the CSV system to be far superior in number of cycles, equipment life, pressure delivery, costs, and many other things.

Those applications are indeed where a CSV shines and again, when I lived in Florida I installed them on pretty much every irrigation and sprinkler system that we installed.