Condo repipe

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veryamusing

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Hi there! Thank you for sharing your expertise with me.

Background: I live in a ground floor condominium unit with about 550 square feet on concrete slab foundation. (Please see the attached photograph of the pipe(s) in question.) My current arrangement is one kitchen sink, one full-size dishwasher, one bathroom sink, one toilet, one tub / shower, and a small 30 gallon water heater.

On Friday afternoon, I noticed a pinhole leak in the supply line to my water heater. I taped it, and had a local independent plumber come out on Sunday to take a look. His $85 service call resulted in a rubber pad a hose clamp. Additionally, he said my pipes (circa 1972) were so bad that he recommended a complete repipe to the tune of $2000.

My questions for the forums are as follows:

1. I don't doubt that the repipe is necessary, but what questions should I ask of the prospective plumbers? Should I specify a certain pipe material, or let them make suggestions?

2. In addition to the new pipes, I would like to take this opportunity to add hook-ups for a washer and possibly regain some closet space by replacing the water heater with a tankless model. I have also been considering a bathroom remodel, to include new fixtures (sink, lavatory and shower). Is the repipe opportune for the bathroom remodel, or should I plan to complete this work in stages? The plumber advised me that the tankless water heater was a no-go because it would require an 80 amp circuit and possibly a new panel.

3. Another good reason to do the repipe is that I share a shutoff valve with my upstairs neighbor. The plumber said her supply lines go up through my unit, and he could replace just the pipes in my unit and reattach the old stuff going to her unit to the new stuff he is installing in my unit. And he also said I would have to run the new lines through the ceiling.

Just wondering if all of this sounds legit. Please let me know, and thank you very much for your time.

Ben in Orlando
 

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Gary Swart

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First thing you need to do is discuss the problem with your condo association. Most of condos are under very strict rules on what can and can not be done. and by whom it can be done. If you were in a private single family home, then the ball would be in your court. You have discovered one of the big problems in retrofitting a tankless water heater. Whether gas or electric, they require more power than homes are normally equipped with. There are other negative factors, but that's not part of your question. As far as the material to repipe with, again you condo association may have some say in this, but Pex is likely the best option as it would require less demolition of walls, but, listen to the plumbers. They know the water conditions in your area and they can determine if a flexible pipe like Pex is better for your situation than a ridge material. In my opinion, this is a one-time-do-it-all-at-once job.
 

veryamusing

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Thanks for your post!

Incidentally, I am the condo board vice president. We do not restrict the owners, and largely impose restrictions by exception (e.g., we mostly deny requests as they occur, but are most definitely quite lenient). Plus, the board consists of myself and one other owner and the manager for 45 units. The board president just recently did a lovely remodel to one of his units, which included a new tankless water heater and stack wash / dry.

I will certainly let the plumbers do the talking.. I intend to get at least three written estimates before choosing anyone in particular.

Thanks again!
 

JohnjH2o1

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Being your the president of the board it may be wise to have all the units re-piped. If your starting to get pin holes in the copper your problems are just starting. You could re-pipe your unit and one of the adjoining units could develop the same problem and flood your unit plus several others. You will get a far better prices for the entire complex then you would get on individual unites. This is a very common thing in your area.

John
 

Jimbo

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If copper deterioration is common in your area, do consider pex. Repipe is a big job which will require at least some access in walls and ceilngs.

As a board memeber myself, I concur that repipe of the whole complex is probably in order, and I also suspect that your chances of getting 75% of the owners to sign on to that special assessment are about the same as the Chargers going to the super bowl EVER!

Yes, I would ask your upstairs neighbor to take care of his pipes in your wall while the wall is open.

Mainly, I would advise you to take a look at all your insurance. You need to carefully read your CCRs. What happens if a big leak in piping to an upstairs unit causes $40K damage to a downstairs unit...and the upstairs guy has NO INSURANCE...and no assets to sue? Most of the damage is common area, and will have to be repaired by the condo. Personal property loss by the downstairs owner is on them. I our case, we have a $5K deductible, and after it happened once, our insurance told us that if we made another claim, they would cancel our insurance. Here in CA, at least, we cannot force homeowners to have insurance. I personally have UPPED my personal property insurance so in case of fire or whatever I will be made whole. I am also on the top floor, so don't have the flood to worry about!
Do everything you can to encourage all the owners to have lots of liabilty insurance, and personal property coverage.
 

hj

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quote; Being your the president of the board it may be wise to have all the units re-piped.

Condos are "owner occupied" and the association can ONLY make suggestions to the owners regarding ANY issue within the unit itself.
 

Jimbo

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quote; Being your the president of the board it may be wise to have all the units re-piped.

Condos are "owner occupied" and the association can ONLY make suggestions to the owners regarding ANY issue within the unit itself.

That varies with the CCR. In my association, any utility ( water, elect, drain) which services ONLY your unit...is yours. In our case, that does apply to the water supply, but many associations the water is not completely segregated. Drains....the unit waste at some point joins a stack and/or lateral which is common to multiple units. It can be a nightmare!!!!!
 

hj

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around here, ONCE it is inside your unit, it is yours. The association is ONLY responsible for items in the "common areas", which can be the "party" walls if the units do not have segregated water and drain lins.
 

JohnjH2o1

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In my area there are some that all you own is from the the drywall into the unit. The association is responsible for the maintenance of the building.

John
 

Jadnashua

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Could someone explain the appeal of "owning" a condo? I just don't get it!

Most any type of property can be had with a condo type of ownership, single family homes, flats, townhouses, and others. The advantage is that you cede the maintenance of the common areas to the group, rather than having to deal with it on an individual basis. Ideally, if you have a decent managment plan, all you'll have is a single maintenance fee that covers stuff like painting, roofing, snow plowing, grass cutting, etc. Since this is negotiated on a group basis, the cost per individual is smaller, and if budgeted properly, you'd have no large expenditures, since the costs for this was collected over the years, rather than having to come up with it when it's unconvenient. This is really handy as you get older, or travel a lot, or just don't want to deal with it.
 

Jimbo

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Typically, condos are basically an apartment, but you own it. My condo is VERY typical for this area.....13 buildings, each with 8 units, mix of one and two BR. Some condos are a few more units, some are 2/3 BR. , etc. Bottom line of course is that it is a small unit with minimal land area per, so you can buy a condo for a lot less than a house......that is why they are popular.

The drawbacks are....if several owners go BK/Foreclosure, those maintenance fees are never collected. The expenses are divided up amongst those that are left standing!
 

Bluebinky

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The drawbacks are....if several owners go BK/Foreclosure, those maintenance fees are never collected. The expenses are divided up amongst those that are left standing!

Aside from living in an "apartment", that's one of the downers that keeps me away... Also, as time goes on, the maintenance goes up, right? It's not like a house where you can just remodel and start over (sort of). I can put a new roof on a house myself during my off days, but in a condo?

I guess as long as real estate prices go up it might be ok, but those days are gone for now.

Sorry for the hijack :)
 

Jadnashua

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As I said, a condo is a form of ownership...it could just as easily be a stand-alone house as a flat in a multi-family building. You own the 'limited private areas', you as a group own the rest of the building and the grounds. Mine is a townhouse. I've remodeled pretty much the entire interior...you do need to get permission to make changes to the outside, and they may or may not be approved by the owner board. If it is well run, there are no surprises, as there's a buget to fix the common area things as they wear out. Because plumbing and electrical work may affect others, there are much stricter rules about what you can do and who is authorized to do it (generally only licensed workers). This is to protect the integrity of the whole complex.
 

veryamusing

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As a board memeber myself, I concur that repipe of the whole complex is probably in order, and I also suspect that your chances of getting 75% of the owners to sign on to that special assessment are about the same as the Chargers going to the super bowl EVER!

Thanks for your advice! I believe that I am one of only a few units left that has not been repiped at the Association's expense. No special assessments--we have fully-funded reserves to cover the cost.
 

veryamusing

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Hi there! Thanks again for all of your helpful replies.

I wanted to check-in and let everyone know that today I met with the plumber chosen by the Association in the past to complete the repipes of the other 40+ units. I am hopeful that you all will have a bit more insight for me, to help guide me in the right direction.

Here goes! I'm rather annoyed after our meeting. We spent less than 15 minutes touring the unit, and he took no notes, measurements, or drawings. He basically checked under the kitchen and bathroom sinks and looked behind the water heater (where the leaky pipe was). He noted that to save the Association money, his "isometrics" would call for the new pipes to be routed into the unit through a 7/8" hole in the concrete block exterior wall. Then, the new pipes will travel along the baseboard to the middle of the unit. He informed me that the floor joists of the unit above are run perpendicular to their expected orientation--a quirk of our building, I was told. Thus, he could not, in fact, run the new pipes thru the ceiling as I was originally told.

I am even more frustrated, because I viewed the repipe as an opportunity for me to have the unit upgraded as well (at my expense, of course). I had hoped to have a new toilet supply line run through the wall as opposed to the crappy-looking one coming out of the slab / tile floor. In addition, I asked him about adding hot / cold supply lines for a washer. He couldn't seem to get around the fact that I knew what I wanted--instead, he kept offering reasons why he couldn't make my requests a reality. I heard a lot of "Problem is..." Edit: one "problem" with adding washer hookups is that he would have to pull a permit with the City. Gosh! A permit? I wouldn't want him to have to do that..!! </sarcasm>

I want to replace the 1972-era toilet with something sleeker and more water efficient (he told me there's nothing wrong with the old one and it seemed fine to him). I want to save space in my closet by replacing the water heater with an electric tankless model (he tells me they won't save me any money--yet, that isn't my primary purpose). He would tell me he didn't want to make big cuts in the wall or break up my bathroom tile. I tell him I do not care in the least if he cuts up old, moldy, disgusting drywall and old, disgusting tile. But he looked at me incredulously, seemingly asking why I would ever do such a thing. Then I asked about washer hookups. He basically asked why I would want hookups when I could keep using the sink rigging I have (which also means lifting the washer and carrying it to the kitchen sink every time I want to use it).

I wish there were a consummate professional in the area that I could trust to take my vision of how I want things and make it happen. I'm sick of the endless excuses I seem to get from contractors. And I don't know where to find that plumber who takes what you says and just does it, rather than settling for "good enough." Where is that plumber?!

Stepping down off my soapbox, I am hopeful that the Board can offer suggestions for dealing with a plumber who seems to think my wants are more trouble than they're worth. Where is the plumber who can engineer creative solutions? Where is the plumber who doesn't argue with you and simply quotes you a price and a description of the work involved?

Lastly, I don't want anyone to think I do not value plumbers for their exceptional expertise in this area. It is far beyond me to fix a leaky pipe. However, I just get frustrated when everyone I talk to acts like they know better or I don't know crap.

Thanks!
 
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Terry

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It sounds like you need to bring in someone that doesn't mind doing the work you would like.

If you want a new plumbing fixture, to save water and to improve the looks, go for it!
If you want a tankless water heater, just make sure with an electrician first that your panel will provide enough power. In most cases, you panel will be too small to add one. Instead of slowly cooking the water and holding it in reserve, the tankless will need to "fry" the water and keep up with the demand. That's a lot to ask.

If you want new tile, then you should get new tile. It's also a great time to replace that old faucet in the wall with a new pressure balanced faucet.

Adding a washer drain, a great idea. It sounds like you need a contractor that doesn't mind accepting your money in trade for improvements.
All things are possible. Some things just take more time and money.
Your ideas are good. The toughest will be the water heating. That one you may need to let go. But at least check into it.
 

veryamusing

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Thank you! I very much appreciate your encouragement--glad to know I'm not asking too much..

Incidentally, I've already contacted another plumber who will be here in about 15 minutes. I hope he's one of the good ones--he wouldn't comment on the other plumber, for fear of sounding "catty." Fingers crossed!

Thanks again. :)
 

JohnjH2o1

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I see your from Orlando. Are you aware that a permit is required to do a re-pipe? If he re-piped the other unit's without permits and the building dept. becomes aware of it both he and the condo association are in for a world of trouble. For one thing they may insist on seeing if any fire walls were penetrated do to the re-pipe.

John
 

Jadnashua

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I'll second the permit issue...especially in a multifamily dwelling, condo, commercial, or apartments, it is generally both illegal to do plumbing work without a license or for not pulling a permit and getting it inspected.
 
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