JWELECTRIC will not be bullying me into silence!

Lee
Just because a homeowner is allowed to do their own work does not mean that it does not require a permit as well as an inspection. This is an insurance issue not a tax department issue.
Should you be one of those many people who believe you can do work without permit or inspection call your local inspection department and ask. I do believe you will find that you are required to have a permit and inspection done as outlined in the laws of your state.

Cookie said:

What is your real gripe here Lee?

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I do not have any gripe. I am only trying to help keep things in perspective.

jwelectric said:

Just because a homeowner is allowed to do their own work does not mean that it does not require a permit as well as an inspection.

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I understand.

Cookie said:

Should you be one of those many people who believe you can do work without permit or inspection call your local inspection department and ask. I do believe you will find that you are required to have a permit and inspection done as outlined in the laws of your state.

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Yes, I believe that is true, but I also know the actual application and/or requirement of that is greatly dependent upon actual practices within a given area. For example:

I *could* (but I will not) go pull my meter and upgrade everything other than the it-would-still-be-hot 60A wire under the eave (between the incoming service line and the meter), and I could then just put the meter back in place and call the power company and let them know I had pulled it to do a some work *safely* -- they like that -- and then they would just come out and place a new seal on the meter with nothing else ever being said or asked. As an aside: Here where I happen to live, leaves still get burned on city streets in residential areas. But in any case ...

At that point (after having done my own work), the matter of insurance covering a loss after a fire or whatever would be dependent upon the quality of the work, and not upon whether or not the work done had been inspected. If it was found that some kind of mis-wiring or whatever had caused a fire, the DIYer would find himself or herself covering the loss just as the contractor would have had to cover it if the work had been done wrongly by that professional. So then, at least *one* reason the pros do work "by the book" and have that work inspected is to protect themselves from liability ... and DIYers are far from foolish when they do exactly the same.

I am not in any way advocating bad work anywhere by anyone, of course, and I believe we would agree the codes and inspections are there to help protect everyone from bad work ...

... and I can well understand why pros with a conscience are at times hesitant about answering questions when they do not have assurance that their answers, as thereafter actually applied, will then also be inspected to be sure a DIYer has made proper and safe use of them ...

... and somewhere within all of that, we find the sometimes-troubled kind of dynamic ever-present here in Terry's forums.

LLigetfa said:

Q. What kind of motorcycle does a clown ride?

A. A Yama HA, HA, HA!

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Yes, and an accelerating Yamaha even sounds like its own name while gears are being shifted ...

Yaaa--Maaa--Haaa

I am presently building a power-chair-hauling sidecar for my own Yamaha (now that I can no longer afford another Harley), and the vanity plate I have ordered for that rig or "hack" (in sidecar terms) will display "YMAHAK"!

... and then with regular motorcycle seats over on the sidecar fender ...



... this novelty plate will be hanging there ...



And of course, also be sure to be safe and only do good work while wiring your own house.

I can’t say about Ca. but here in NC this is not even close to being true. I work daily with electrical code enforcement officials and I can count on one hand the number that was a contractor that couldn’t make it and of those a couple was due to health problems.
Here in NC the code enforcement official is required to take and pass a course at a community college before he can get a Standard Certificate in the field of inspection for which they seek employment. They take an oath to enforce the codes as adopted by the state.

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Seems to me Ca or LA or NC or AK have the same issue addressed by one old adage :

“Nothing in this world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful people with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan "press on" has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race”

Kids learn quick who the bad teachers are, and so do the builders of the inspectors faster. The local contractors assoc just had one fired.

leejosepho said:

Yes, I believe that is true, but I also know the actual application and/or requirement of that is greatly dependent upon actual practices within a given area. For example:

I *could* (but I will not) go pull my meter and upgrade everything other than the it-would-still-be-hot 60A wire under the eave (between the incoming service line and the meter), and I could then just put the meter back in place and call the power company and let them know I had pulled it to do a some work *safely* -- they like that -- and then they would just come out and place a new seal on the meter with nothing else ever being said or asked.

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Lee
Here is what your state has to say so you do as you please but you can’t say it was out of ignorance.

A building permit is required for most construction work on a residential property. While this may not have been true in some parishes in the past, all parish and local governments will be issuing building permits for residential work in 2007.

Generally, permits are required for all permanent alterations to any structure, except for light cosmetic work like painting or the replacement of some finish surfaces like carpeting or counter tops. Even beyond the home itself, permits are often required for gazebos, RV covers and fences.

These projects typically require a building permit:
• A new residence
• Home additions and most renovations
• Any modification that involves structural work
• Covered patios
• Any accessory structure over 100 square feet
• Roofing & decking that exceeds 100 square feet
• Solid fencing that is 3 feet or higher
• Any fencing that is 4 feet or higher
• Fencing that exceeds 25 feet in length
• Changing out or relocating a hot water heater
• Changing out an air conditioning unit or components (excluding window units)
• Any electrical work
• Pools; below and above ground
• Gas line work
• Sewer line work
• Relocation of a house or mobile home
When a permit is required, work should not begin on the project until the permit has been issued. If work has begun, you should stop immediately and obtain a permit before continuing.

You will need to provide some basic information about the property and about the proposed construction in order to obtain a permit. You can use "Information Needed to Get a Building Permit" as a guide, but it is always a good idea to check with the local governments to find out exactly what they require.


What all this means is should your seal be broke the utility will require something from the inspection department before a new seal is installed.

There is only 2 things I can say, I truly hate, in this world. One is ... mold. And, the second one is, and anyone who knows me, can answer the second one quite easily. Motorcyles.

In 1981, I had a Harley speed like a rocket through the redlight, he was drunk, and wearing of course, no helmet, and by the time, I saw something coming at me from the side, it was too late. In order to literally save this man's life, age29, I drove my car into a telephone pole. I never hit him straight on, he plowed into me from the side, because I veered away into that pole, and him and his very large, very heavy, very powerful cycle came up onto my windishield, through my windshield with him on it. He flew back off with his bike and went under my wheels. He lost his leg and had massive head injuries. I lost my front teeth, my nose was broken, my left knee cap, and, I was picking out glass in my face for a long long time.

He didn't have insurance. He was on welfare. And, they were trying to put a lien on me, for 220 grand, because they couldn't believe someone would deliberately drive into a pole, and figured I lost control. I had 2 witnesses, but he had one. A man who was a santa from the salvation army. In that split second, I made a decision. And, it was to save his life. And, that is what I did. I willingly signed over my insurance because, I felt lucky to be alive, was happy this man was, too, and the money, didn't matter to me. Even though I did nothing wrong, because I willingly gave up my insurance money, I was found so much at fault, and that didn't matter, either.

What mattered to me was we lived.

I hate motorcycles because I think, they are without a doubt the most dangerous thing anyone could drive.

Again, this is none of my business, and, I am sure you will not drink and drive, or speed, but, may I ask, just for safety reasons, who is going to ride in that side car.

In a split second, a life can be changed forever.

cookie, i am a biker, and i take offense to you hating motorcycles. it is the rider who was the problem, not the motorcycle. same with guns. it is the person with the gun, who doesn't respect it or life, which causes a fatality. blame the human, not the machine. i hate to say it, but he was riding a hardley, and was drunk, no helmet, and had no insurance.. so typical of a hardley dependable rider, not responsible bikers.

ballvalve said:

Seems to me Ca or LA or NC or AK have the same issue addressed by one old adage :

“Nothing in this world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful people with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan "press on" has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race”

Kids learn quick who the bad teachers are, and so do the builders of the inspectors faster. The local contractors assoc just had one fired.

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Am I the only who recognizes these words spoken by our 30th president?
Albert Einstein said,” You have to learn the rules of the game. And then you have to play better than anyone else.”

I just don’t see how anyone can get anyone else fired. It was what the person being fired done that cost them their job, is this not true?

Knowing how quickly “kids” learn the bad teachers I chose to have adult students, you know the ones that already know right from wrong. The ones who have already learned responsibility.

You should not take offense. It is my opinion which I am entitled to. Like everyone has. My brother and his sons are both bike riders, along with my brother in law, and, they know how I feel and take no offense.

I love what I love, and I hate what I hate. I am sure as everyone has. I take no offense at what another hates at all. I hate mold and I hate cycles.

And, I hope Lee is very careful with whom rides in the sidecar. Everyone always thinks, whatever happens, will only be with the next guy. Stuff happens. Accidents with cycles are extremely sad. The protection is so little.

Chad Schloss said:

cookie, i am a biker, and i take offense to you hating motorcycles. it is the rider who was the problem, not the motorcycle. same with guns. it is the person with the gun, who doesn't respect it or life, which causes a fatality. blame the human, not the machine. i hate to say it, but he was riding a hardley, and was drunk, no helmet, and had no insurance.. so typical of a hardley dependable rider, not responsible bikers.

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jwelectric said:

Lee
Here is what your state has to say so you do as you please but you can’t say it was out of ignorance ...

What all this means is should your seal be broke the utility will require something from the inspection department before a new seal is installed.

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I understand, and I thank you ... and I actually did learn some things there. For example: I had no idea a permit might be needed for setting my "horse tank" (a 9' round stock tank) pool on the ground and filling it with water even though that would be no different (as far as mechanical ability is concerned) than changing out a window-unit AC. In any case, I doubt that even the plumbing contractor that will possibly be installing a new water heater for us (after the electrician has run a wire) will pull a permit for that job. In the final analysis, many people around here (and even in City Hall) just use a lot of common sense and do not bother each other with small stuff. However, I do not say that in any kind of disrespectful way to you as a teacher educating licensees and other people about what they *should* be doing, and for whatever reason/s.

Cookie said:

I hope Lee is very careful with whom rides in the sidecar ...

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You can be sure of that! Way back in '65, I was taught that it would only be my *own* fault if I *ever* got hurt on a bike -- no exceptions -- and I typically ride that way, and even for other people. But, stuff still sometimes "just happens". For example: My bagger bars are not angled well for low-speed maneuvering, but they are how I like them. So, what happens? I was making a hard right turn at less than walking speed in an uphill parking lot and then did a "tank slap" (handlebars just sort of turned themselves all the way to one side), and I ended up dropping the bike on the back of my left leg after trying to step off ... and now I have a bump there that I am beginning to think will never go away!

I commend you for avoiding that guy on a motorcycle. One of the best teachers I ever had was a Driver's Ed instructor who told us to never swerve for animals, only people, and that bending a little sheet metal was far better than running over a pedestrian.

Chad Schloss said:

... it is the rider who was the problem, not the motorcycle ...

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Yes, and I know of a guy who died in a scenario just like Cookie had described, but when the other motorist had no opportunity to avoid being struck.

@jwelectric: Now that all matters related to electrical work in this thread have been exhausted, there will be no objection if you might either close it or move it somewhere else.

Shalom

leejosepho said:

In any case, I doubt that even the plumbing contractor that will possibly be installing a new water heater for us (after the electrician has run a wire) will pull a permit for that job. In the final analysis, many people around here (and even in City Hall) just use a lot of common sense and do not bother each other with small stuff. However, I do not say that in any kind of disrespectful way to you as a teacher educating licensees and other people about what they *should* be doing, and for whatever reason/s.

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Lee, not wanting to beat a dead horse but I think that everyone should know that there is a big push across America to bring to an end uninspected work.
Most of the states in the southeastern part of our country model their licensing and inspection departments after NC. Here we have invoked a law that it is a mandatory $500 fine for not obtaining a permit before beginning work in any of the trades. This does include the homeowner that is undertaking a project their self. This law is also being considered in several states and some have already adopted it. I am not sure about your state but if it hasn’t then it soon will be.

This fine is being pushed by the insurance companies that have to pay big claims on uninspected work done by both the DIYer and licensed contractors. The main issue here is that most contractors will carry a liability insurance to pay for their mistakes but the homeowners insurance pays for the DIY mistake. The insurance companies are lobbying the states to invoke a no profit law for those who do not follow proper procedure when doing maintenance work on their homes. In other words should a home owner or contractor not follow the permits and inspection set forth by their state the liability falls on the person doing the work and not the insurance company. The insurance company will pay but then come looking to be reimbursed for their losses.

I understand that someone that owns their own home wanting to save a dime and do the work their self and I also know that in the real world people are doing these types of installations every day. What they need to understand is that the government could care less if the place burns down on top of them but when their wives and children who are completely innocent are involved then the government steps forward to protect them. This is the common sense that our government is looking at not that some person is wanting to save their self a dime and think they know what is going on when the truth of the matter is they don’t have a clue.

Case in point;
Home owner gets wife a whirlpool tub for her birthday. Water heater can’t keep up with the demand so hubby turns up thermostat. Water heater is now leaking on basement floor from pressure relief. Hubby says this is no problem he will tie it into the AC drain pipe which is about 2 feet higher than the relief valve. Baby slept just above water heater and will carry scares for the rest of her life. Yes dad had the right to do work on his own home but he didn’t have the right to harm a three year old little girl. Personally I think he should have received jail time how about you?

jwelectric said:

Lee, not wanting to beat a dead horse but I think that everyone should know that there is a big push across America to bring to an end uninspected work.

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I think that is good, and I have never meant to sound like I have any objections to inspections ... and that is why I readily post pictures such as the one where the presence or absence of a bonding screw was then brought into question. I was actually hoping for a bit of "inspection" when I posted that pic.

jwelectric said:

Home owner gets wife a whirlpool tub for her birthday. Water heater can’t keep up with the demand so hubby turns up thermostat. Water heater is now leaking on basement floor from pressure relief. Hubby says this is no problem he will tie it into the AC drain pipe which is about 2 feet higher than the relief valve. Baby slept just above water heater and will carry scares for the rest of her life. Yes dad had the right to do work on his own home but he didn’t have the right to harm a three year old little girl. Personally I think he should have received jail time how about you?

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I had been thinking about bringing up that kind of matter here, and I hesitate in giving a quick, hard-and-fast answer either way there. However, we all know simple ignorance is not a criminal offense. And so, and in that kind of specific scenario, I would say the man should be educated a bit in the area of mechanical safety (and even made to pay for said education) and then charged with some kind of willful neglect if he ever again did anything mechanical resulting in harm to another human being.

I remember hearing a judge tell me that ignorance of the law was not a defense.

This child which is an innocent person has to live with scares that will never go away and pop is sucking on beer watching TV. Is there justice in this?
His defense was that he couldn’t afford to hire a plumber after paying for the tub. My stance on the issue is that if he couldn’t afford a plumber he couldn’t afford the tub.
The one person that will be paying for the plumber and tub is the poor little girl asleep in the safety of her own bed when stupidly interrupted her dreams.

Let me also say that if I was sitting on the jury that man would receive a guilty verdict of child abuse as what he did illegally caused his child to suffer for the rest of her life.

jwelectric said:

I remember hearing a judge tell me that ignorance of the law was not a defense.

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Ignorance of the law is not even an issue in the scenario you had posted. Rather, and in the absence of any law saying the man could not do his own work, the man was simply ignorant of the effect/harm his work would/could then cause.

jwelectric said:

This child which is an innocent person has to live with scares that will never go away and pop is sucking on beer watching TV. Is there justice in this?

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That is emotional rhetoric that confuses the actual questions ... and there you go again, respectfully said, talking about people -- mocking and ridiculing, and even in mere conjecture -- rather than the actual issue/s at hand! (wink)

The child is a dependent of a father who is mechanically-incompetent, and that father should be inhibited from ever again endangering that child in such a manner (or any other, actually) whether or not he ever drinks any beer and/or watches any TV.

jwelectric said:

His defense was that he couldn’t afford to hire a plumber after paying for the tub.

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What criminal charge had been brought against him? Point: He might have *explained* himself and/or in that kind of way honestly answered questions about his actions in the mechanical department that had ultimately caused inadvertent harm, but I am not aware of him having ever been accused of anything illegal. Now yes, the work he had done was "illegal" in the light of mechanical codes, but mechanical codes are not (yet) anywhere connected to actual criminal law (at least as far as I know).

jwelectric said:

My stance on the issue is that if he couldn’t afford a plumber he couldn’t afford the tub.

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If the hot tub was necessary for physical therapy for his wife -- the pool in my back yard is for my own back therapy -- then it would be your and/or my own personal option to go help those folks out a bit while letting them know you are doing that with the safety of the child sleeping just above the tub in mind ... and thus would people be educated prior to children being inadvertently harmed by well-meaning fathers who just happen to be mechanically incompetent.

jwelectric said:

The one person that will be paying for the plumber and tub is the poor little girl asleep in the safety of her own bed when stupidly interrupted her dreams.

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Emotional rhetoric that does not address any issue at hand.

jwelectric said:

Let me also say that if I was sitting on the jury that man would receive a guilty verdict of child abuse as what he did illegally caused his child to suffer for the rest of her life.

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Again, and whether intentionally or not, you are confusing/crossing/mixing mechanical codes with criminal law.

leejosepho said:

Shalom

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A truly wonderful word, which should be shared by all.

LOTW said:

A truly wonderful word, which should be shared by all.

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JW and I have had some trouble in the past, but we are now each trying to keep all of that ended!

leejosepho said:

JW and I have had some trouble in the past, but we are now each trying to keep all of that ended!

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I suggest merging forces and going after Ian.

Brother Joseph, Herein lays a lot of misunderstanding of our codes. When adopted into “law†is the only time that they can be enforced. In my state as well as yours it takes action from the legislature before the codes are enforced meaning the codes are law. Look up the State Fire Marshal's Office and see if there is a RS, in front of the rules for enforcing the codes in your state. This “RS, means Revised Statutes or law. This law is law even if it is a civil law.

I am not confusing emotional rhetoric but instead am quoting the facts as they are.
First the man did work without permit or inspection which is against the law.
Second what he did illegally caused someone else harm.
This second act of causing harm is an aggravating circumstance which would mandate a stiffer sentence for the illegal action.

The fact that water being trapped in the drain line would cause pressure to build to the point of rupture and the release of live steam that caused someone harm during an illegal act brought forth court action. To say he was ignorant of the codes is no excuse at all no matter how much one would want it to be. It was due to his ignorance of the dangers and stupidity in doing something he knew little about that a child was hurt and pay he did although I feel it should have been harsher.

Now I would like for you to stand in front of this little girl and tell her that all the things she used to dream of doing but will never be able to is nothing more than emotional rhetoric and she should suck it all up and keep on with life as though her face and legs were never burned.

leejosepho said:

JW and I have had some trouble in the past, but we are now each trying to keep all of that ended!

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Interpreting codes is daunting enough for the DIY'er. Trying to interpret the law is almost impossible, that's why lawyers are so expensive; they create their own mumbo jumbo wherefore and whereas, yadda yadda yadda. The judge tells the jury how he wants it interpreted.

I agree with JW. If you do something dangerous, and if it should have be done by a pro and/or inspected, but you do it yourself anyway and NOT inspected, if somebody gets hurt, I "think" you are responsible. I am not even a PARA-legal or legal intern, but again, I agree with JW. Ignorance is not bliss (at least not always). The pied piper needs to be paid one way or the other.