New member's questions. pressure tank sizing

A standard pressure tank has a bladder in it, no need for adding air to the water like was done 50 years ago.

I never played with water in FL or any geysers but plenty of water with iron it and Micronizers.

Around where I'm from raucina, there are a bunch of handymen type drillers etc. that throw duct tape and bailing wire at everything they can. They've never seen a bladder tank they could say anything good about yet; they love galvanized air over water types. They charge a bunch for being stuck in the '50s and they know nothing about water quality except it shouldn't have any smell, color or things floating in or on it. To them, that's good 'sweet' water man. Little do they know.

A "standard" tank still has no bladder. A bladder or diaphrgm tank has a seperation device.

Edited out personal attack.

DeeJay said:

Just back from a run to the city to buy a bladder tank for next week. While in HD, I spoke with the head plumbing guy, who had never heard of a CSV, so the mystery continues.

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To be honest... the last person to probably be familiar with the CSV would probably be a HD employee. Also, unless your plumber is the well and pump expert in your area theres a good chance he may not have heard of it either. Valveman will hopefully correct me if I'm wrong but I think the CSV valves have been around in the neighborhood of 12-15 years. I had to do some investigating to find info on the CSV but once I started checking around I found enough data and success stories on the CSV to take the plunge. (FYI: I purchased mine from a distributor on ****) and saved quite a bit off suggested retail.)

I went though a similar ordeal a couple weeks ago when my 125 gallon pressure tank let go. It was suggested I check out the CSV valve option as well. Eventually I settled on the pside-kick (made by the folks at CSV). I went for it because it includes the pressure tank and is a complete kit. (i.e., no thinking required)

See >this link< for an animated demonstration of how the CSV works.

NOTE: If you decide to put in a CSV ... and since it will be inside... I'd suggest the CSV1W (bronze body) over the CSV1 (plastic body). Both will perform the same function but there have been reports of the plastic body leaking at the o-ring in the situation where all the plumbing connections we not properly lined up or if there is any undue force on the valve.

I continue to read any input posters here may provide re: CSV's. Thank you.
This morning I received an email from the Canadian connection for CSV in Canada. He gave me a toll-free number (Here it is for interested Canadians : Well Busters 1 866 968 1474, in Belleville Ont.)
I haven't had a chance to call them yet- the reno started today so I worked 7:30-5:30. The old pump went out today- we did the repair on the wall behind it- and the new pump and tank and charcoal filter go in tomorrow, too soon for a CSV to arrive.
However, when I get the price and info, I'll post it here for the benefit of others like myself who are just learning about the product.

ballvalve said:

A "standard" tank still has no bladder. A bladder or diaphrgm tank has a seperation device.

Edited out personal attack.

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The "standard" tank today is called a bladder tank although most do not have a bladder as you point out. The galvanized tank you propose has no barrier between the air in the top of the tank and the water in the bottom of the tank. Air, oxygen actually, is an oxidizer and an oxidizer converts ferrous soluble iron into ferric insoluble iron called rust by most and air also oxidizes everything else in water that can be oxidized, like manganese and H2S etc. and that oxidation causes particulate matter commonly called sediment. That sediment will cling to and build up on the inside of the pipe.

The reason that people haven't heard of the Cycle Stop Valves is that they don't attend the Water Well Expositions in their state or reigon, therefore they aren't up with the times. The CSV has been proven and in the ground water industry for fifteen years. I suggest that you call CSV at 806-885-4445 where you can order the valve directly or go to http://www.cyclestopvalves.com to learn more about CSV's. I would have purchased the CSV's Pside-Kick and eleminated the large tank and all the problems!

His plan with 19 gal tank and the CSV will be far superior to sidekick IMO. Bigger tank is always gonna be better than a smaller one.. CSV or not.

Why do you believe that the larger tank is better?

So the pump doesnt cycle every time u flush a toilet, or run more than a gallon of water like everyone does when they open a faucet. Now he'll be able to run like 6 gallons, and have the CSV to keep from cycling when steady water is in demand.. Sidekick would cycle the pump much more than the 19gal for every day water uses that isn't steady flow.. Basically common sense is why I prefer the bigger tank for residential use.

I use to think the same thing. As a matter of fact I think the “tank sizing” information on my web page still says to use a minimum of 5 gallon draw down for a single house. After 18 years and a few hundred pump installers telling me the little tanks work just fine, I had to change my mind. I did many cycle and run time test on homes, duplexes, cities, etc., over the years. If there is any irrigation on a single home system, the CSV saves so many cycles during those low flow irrigation zones, that it more than makes up for a cycle every time a toilet is flushed. Also, if you have 1 minute of run time before the pump shuts off, people in a single home will usually turn on another water using appliance before the pump has run for 1 minute. So the pump only cycles once per each person in the home during times of water use. Brush your teeth, within a minute flush a toilet, within another minute start the shower, and the pump only cycled once the entire time you were in the bathroom. Or for those times when multiple flushes are required, as long as you flush again within a minute, the pump will not cycle during 1000 flushes. Waiting longer than a minute “after” the toilet stops filling, before flushing a second time, is the only way the pump will cycle at all.

For a standard home there is very little difference in the number of pump cycles between a CSV system and a tank with 1 gallon of draw compared to a tank with 5 gallons of draw. My original tank sizing instruction from 18 years ago always used the worst-case scenario. The worst-case being ½ GPM leaking 24 hours a day. Then a tank with 5 gallons of draw, will keep the pump from cycling more than the maximum number of cycles per day, recommended by the motor manufacturer. However, if you have a 720 gallon per day leak (1/2 GPM), the leak needs to be fixed don’t just add a larger tank.

justwater said:

So the pump doesnt cycle every time u flush a toilet, or run more than a gallon of water like everyone does when they open a faucet. Now he'll be able to run like 6 gallons, and have the CSV to keep from cycling when steady water is in demand.. Sidekick would cycle the pump much more than the 19gal for every day water uses that isn't steady flow.. Basically common sense is why I prefer the bigger tank for residential use.

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Very good. So now can we put you down for a case of the 2-3 common sizes of CSVs?

Everyone has their preferences, and i prefer to use at least 20gal tanks for residential in my business. i look at wells and systems every day, and I'll never be convinced that a CSV with 20gal tank will cycle just as much as one with a 4.4gal tank. reckon people get the whole family to flush toilets and run house water all without going more than a minute in between? Besides, does the sidekick even run 1 minute during a cycle? 1 gal drawdown tank should already have over 1/2gal in it when the valve kicks in at 50psi, right? and with that dinky tank, as soon as the pump kicks on, it's already made 50 psi immediately, so shouldn't a pump with csv and 1gal drawdown tank only run about 30-40 seconds during a cycle?

Btw, thanks for the sales pitch but I currently have 20-25 csv's on the shelf in my shop right now. I really do use them quite often.

30 years ago I said “I will never be convinced” that a 100 gallon bladder tank will give the same draw down as a 220 galv. I was wrong!! We don’t learn from things that work the way we think they will. We learn from being proven wrong. I am a pump guy so I can talk about them. Pump guys are hard headed. Even when having been proven wrong by a few hundred other pump guys, I still have to prove it to myself. I am slow but, when confronted with the facts, I eventually come around.

The really small tank wasn’t my idea but, after 18 years I finally gave in.

I am the new user from Quebec, excuse me my English please. So I have a new well about 140 ft and a new submersible pompe Groudfosse 10 gpm. My water is always dirty and I pompe it out. I asked my driller about it and his answer I must be patient and continue to pompe my water out but only very weak flow. It can be few months or even more, I'm very sad about it. There is another opinion that I probably need larger tank (actually it's 20 gal), maybe 48 gal will be good because my pompe will run less frequently and my water will cleaner because there will be less of turbulense in my well. Another opinion that I have to install one device and decrease amperage of my pompe for the reason that my pompe stay relatively calm and suck water from the well slowly. This will theoretically improuve the quality of my water.
Once again, I can't clean my water after 3 weeks contunuosly pomping water out, the refill of my well is very slow (about 60 gal per hour). If I run water very quickly I have no water and my weel is dry. If water leaks slowly, after 24 hours it continues to leak and the well is not dry. I can't deep my well because my neighbor did it and he has sulfuric water now. My plumber not sure that bigger tank can help me.
So, I need your help urgently.

I would change to a MUCH smaller pump and consider a large holding tank to settle the dirt and then feed the house with another pump and your existing 20 gallon tank.

Perhaps you can slow down water output to 55 GPM with a valve, and leave the existing pump in the well.

Pumping out a low producing well just takes time. I have a low producing well that only makes 9/10s of a GPM. I hooked up a Cycle Sensor to automatically shut the pump off when the amps drop from pumping air. Then I set it to automatically turn the pump back on in one hour. I let the Cycle Sensor turn the pump on and off this way for about 3 weeks and the well finally cleared up.

ballvalve said:

I would change to a MUCH smaller pump and consider a large holding tank to settle the dirt and then feed the house with another pump and your existing 20 gallon tank.

Perhaps you can slow down water output to 55 GPM with a valve, and leave the existing pump in the well.

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What is your suggestion for a much smaller pump, maybe 5 GPM or another one?

that is possibility, look closely at the pump curve and specifications. Perhaps just slowing output with a simple valve will accomplish the same, allowing pump to run longer and not to draw well down to zero.

The cycle sensor or franklin pumpsaver is a device that can allow you to adjust pumping times and "resting"times. You might want to get a better well man to fine tune your system rather than the original installer.

if I change my tank of 20gal to another one of 48gal, maybe it'll be better like reserve of water from my low producing well?

A 20 gallon tank only olds 5 gallons of water, a 48 gallon tank only holds 11 gallons of water. Not going to make much difference.