Water Softener with RO and Ph (acid) Neutralizer Install Help

thinkup · Apr 2, 2010

Yes, the only place I cut into the PVC was where you can see all the purple. I'm going to look into that now and the other stuff as well. I live in a little village and I'm sure things have been here for years that are not up to code. Don't get me started on how every electrical connection in the house was made with tape only with not a single wire nut to be found!!

So that leaves me with .... what do I need to do now to get this system I have now up and running to it's best possible ability?

Gary Slusser · Apr 2, 2010

Bob999 said:
Perhaps you can explain why Fleck sells the low flow piston and lists it on Page 8 of the manual that is describing the use of the valve in a filter application. I very much doubt that Fleck would offer the piston if someone is not buying it. Now I can't prove that statement any more than you can prove your statements about any dealers.

Lets just agree that we disagree and move on.

STOP THE BASHING!!!

I'm glad to explain it to you. Various piston choices are used for various filter applications. Example, a low water use piston could be used for a carbon filter on city water used to remove chlorine but not on a heavy mineral like this AN filter or a mixed bed turbidity, or regenerated greensand, Pyrolox etc. filter.

No I'm not going to agree to disagree when you are wrong because you have no experience in selling or servicing water treatment equipment of any kind; except possibly your own equipment while you pretend you know this stuff because you've read spec sheets or a manual.

And especially when you continue to deny any errors and you have corrected the original post containing the error and then in the next 50 some posts over a couple days you don't post anything about correcting the error... while you get into playing word games and then get into personal attacks and whine that I'm bashing you.

Sponsor · 2022-01-29T12:20:58-0800

NHmaster3015 · Apr 2, 2010

As a general rule, all traps need vents. In other words, every time you go down with waste, you need to go up with a vent. It could be a mechanical vent, or it could be a pipe tied into the house vents. As for the connecting Sanitary Tee. You can not install them horizontally (flat) for drainage purposes. They should have been wye. You should always check with your building inspector when cutting into the DWV or water supply piping.

Furthermore I do not believe that the 1 to 2lb difference in incoming pressure will have any effect at all on the equipment that Thinkup has selected and I believe that though perhaps not optimal, his equipment will perform to his satisfaction for many years.

Gary Slusser · Apr 2, 2010

Bob999 said:
There was nothing sneaky about what I did. The post was labeled as being edited with the date and time the change was made as well as notation that the reason for the change was a correction.

STOP THE BASHING!!!

"Correction" can mean anything. You specifically deleted the error and added text making it look as if the error never happened and the added text makes it look like you know what you're talking about and... all the following posts mentioning your error look baseless.

Had you left the error there and/or corrected it there and then mentioned in a followup post that you corrected it there, I'd be applauding your honesty.

Bob999 · Apr 2, 2010

Gary Slusser said:
I'm glad to explain it to you. Various piston choices are used for various filter applications. Example, a low water use piston could be used for a carbon filter on city water used to remove chlorine but not on a heavy mineral like this AN filter or a mixed bed turbidity, or regenerated greensand, Pyrolox etc. filter.

So now you have changed your story--are you going to post a correction? Specifically, you posted:

Gary Slusser said:
This changing the time in backwash by changing the piston stuff Bob.... what are you talking about?
The piston has absolutely nothing to do with how long a backwash or settle rinse runs for. So please explain what you are talking about and correct you error.

Previously you inferred that I didn't know what I was talking about when I noted that the backwash time could be changed by changing the piston. Now you acknowledge that I was correct.

As to the matter of using a low flow piston on an AN filter--I never said that it should be used on an AN filter. This is just another case of your making up what another poster said and then acting like you have corrected an error.

What I posted was:

Bob999 said:
Electronic valves allow varying the cycle times--something not available on the 5600 (except by changing the piston) but if the standard cycle times work in your situation then things should be fine.

Gary Slusser · Apr 2, 2010

Wally Hays said:
As a general rule, all traps need vents. In other words, every time you go down with waste, you need to go up with a vent. It could be a mechanical vent, or it could be a pipe tied into the house vents. As for the connecting Sanitary Tee. You can not install them horizontally (flat) for drainage purposes. They should have been wye. You should always check with your building inspector when cutting into the DWV or water supply piping.

Wally, are you saying or meaning to implying that Thinkup's 1/2" flow of discharge water from his filter and softener going into 3/4" PVC and then through an air gap into that 1.5" or 2" stand pipe every few days during the middle of the night won't drain OK?

NHmaster3015 · Apr 2, 2010

No, I am saying that the drain and trap do not meet code. We have those pesky things for a reason if nothing more than to confuse people. It would seem specious to ignore such things on a forum that primarily gives plumbing advice don't you think?

Gary Slusser · Apr 2, 2010

Wally Hays said:
No, I am saying that the drain and trap do not meet code. We have those pesky things for a reason if nothing more than to confuse people. It would seem specious to ignore such things on a forum that primarily gives plumbing advice don't you think?

No common sense and this confusion you mention is why many DIYer type people don't follow codes but what is the reasons for this type Tee not being allowed, or installed correctly and a vent being required?

I see you added to the post I just replied to, here's a copy of what you added and my reply;

****************
Furthermore I do not believe that the 1 to 2lb difference in incoming pressure will have any effect at all on the equipment that Thinkup has selected and I believe that though perhaps not optimal, his equipment will perform to his satisfaction for many years.
***************
You had previously said in your first post in this thread that you have installed some water treatment equipment but you were no expert, or something very close to that.

Yet here you are disagreeing with me that to obtain full DLFC gpm flow in heavy filter mineral takes time and needs all the pressure it can get to successfully backwash it to total bed expansion and doing that ASAP is critical. So what do you base your opinion that 1-2 psi more will not make a difference on? Are you aware that full DLFC gpm and total bed expansion may not happen until the last couple minutes of the backwash cycle position run time?

Gary Slusser · Apr 2, 2010

Bob999 said:
As to the matter of using a low flow piston on an AN filter--I never said that it should be used on an AN filter. This is just another case of your making up what another poster said and then acting like you have corrected an error.

What I posted was:

You implied that Thinkup could change his piston to get more time ion backwash. Here in red is what you originally said in post #65 and in black is my reply to that statement;
*****************
This one is wrong; The Fleck head has settings to determine how many days between backwashing and how long the backwash and settling rinse are.

The 5600 he has is a 12 day time clock and he can select the number of days between backwashes but he CAN NOT change how long the backwash and settling rinse are.
*************

Something else you told Thinkup although you've said you didn't suggest/imply he do it;

****************

Originally Posted by Bob999
Electronic valves allow varying the cycle times--something not available on the 5600 (except by changing the piston) but if the standard cycle times work in your situation then things should be fine.
***************

p.s. those 30 minutes in backwash you mentioned in your correction, there is a number of minutes long pause between them and the flow to drain stops during that pause allowing the bed to settle from whatever amount of expansion it had attained. And 15 minutes may not be sufficient for total bed expansion. The second 15 minutes may not be sufficient either.

NHmaster3015 · Apr 2, 2010

Gary Slusser said:
No common sense and this confusion you mention is why many DIYer type people don't follow codes but what is the reasons for this type Tee not being allowed, or installed correctly and a vent being required?

The reason we vent traps is to keep them from siphoning and to maintain a trap seal. Traps can siphon for a number of reasons, positive and negative pressure being the underlying cause. Sanitary Tee's can not be used for drainage in the horizontal position because the flow is not directional in that position. No knowledgeable plumber would install a san tee horizontally for waste.

I see you added to the post I just replied to, here's a copy of what you added and my reply;

****************
Furthermore I do not believe that the 1 to 2lb difference in incoming pressure will have any effect at all on the equipment that Thinkup has selected and I believe that though perhaps not optimal, his equipment will perform to his satisfaction for many years.
***************
You had previously said in your first post in this thread that you have installed some water treatment equipment but you were no expert, or something very close to that.

Yet here you are disagreeing with me that to obtain full DLFC gpm flow in heavy filter mineral takes time and needs all the pressure it can get to successfully backwash it to total bed expansion and doing that ASAP is critical. So what do you base your opinion that 1-2 psi more will not make a difference on? Are you aware that full DLFC gpm and total bed expansion may not happen until the last couple minutes of the backwash cycle position run time?

Try to think of it as a difference of opinion. I do not believe that a 1 to 2 lb difference from incoming pressure is going to be a problem, do you? and if so do you have evidence or proof to back it up?

Bob999 · Apr 2, 2010

Gary Slusser said:
You implied that Thinkup could change his piston to get more time ion backwash. Here in red is what you originally said in post #65 and in black is my reply to that statement;

That is your opinion. I think you are wrong. It is not what I said. You are again making things up and then bashing an the basis of your incorrect interpretation of the post.

Bob999 · Apr 2, 2010

Gary Slusser said:
This one is wrong; The Fleck head has settings to determine how many days between backwashing and how long the backwash and settling rinse are.

I corrected that 2 days ago. So why do you keep reposting it? Do you think you are somehow making a point by continually going over the same thing?

I have acknowledged that my original post was incorrect and posted correct information.

If you raise this again you are simply attacking me in violation of the rules of this board.

Gary Slusser · Apr 2, 2010

Wally Hays said:
Try to think of it as a difference of opinion. I do not believe that a 1 to 2 lb difference from incoming pressure is going to be a problem, do you? and if so do you have evidence or proof to back it up?

Please learn how to quote and reply to a quote correctly.

Here is what I asked you about the specific Tee in Thinkup's drain line and your reply;
**************
what is the reasons for this type Tee not being allowed, or installed correctly and a vent being required?

The reason we vent traps is to keep them from siphoning and to maintain a trap seal. Traps can siphon for a number of reasons, positive and negative pressure being the underlying cause. Sanitary Tee's can not be used for drainage in the horizontal position because the flow is not directional in that position. No knowledgeable plumber would install a san tee horizontally for waste.
**************
You generalize but don't get specific to this Tee etc.as to whether it will drain the water flow or not. I suspect that's because you don't want to admit that it will drain that flow rate and volume just fine. If I'm wrong please correct me.

Yes I have seen AN and other heavy mineral beds clump and otherwise fail because of improper backwashing and the cure is a few minutes more time in backwash OR checking and adjusting the air precharge up in a well pump pressure tank by a few lbs of air pressure or by adjusting the pump switch cutin and cutout up a few lbs higher or adjusting the air precharge and switch both up higher.

It sounds as if you have no experience in that type troubleshooting or service on heavy mineral filters.

NHmaster3015 · Apr 2, 2010

Did I generalize? I think what I said was that the tee and trap arrangement did not meet code. Whole bunches of things work that are not done right. I am sure you have seen many AN filters clump up but do you really think a 1 or 2lb difference in pressure will cause it too? As for my level of experience let's just say that we are all continually learning new things.

Gary Slusser · Apr 2, 2010

Bob999 said:
I corrected that 2 days ago.

I have acknowledged that my original post was incorrect and posted correct information.

If you raise this again you are simply attacking me in violation of the rules of this board.

Thank you. I'm glad I could help you do the right thing.

Gary Slusser · Apr 2, 2010

Wally Hays said:
Did I generalize? I think what I said was that the tee and trap arrangement did not meet code. Whole bunches of things work that are not done right. I am sure you have seen many AN filters clump up but do you really think a 1 or 2lb difference in pressure will cause it too? As for my level of experience let's just say that we are all continually learning new things.

Yes I think you generalized because you actually said; Originally Posted by Wally Hays As a general rule, all traps need vents....

And since bunches of things not to code "work" as you say, help Thinkup out here, do you think this Tee etc. will work for him or not?

Yes over time a couple lbs less water pressure can make a big difference by causing incomplete backwashing, channelization and clumping problems but more important is dirt build up in the bed which prevents the mineral from buffering the acid in the water and premature replacement of the whole bed.

Do you agree with me that it is easier to listen and learn from others that have experience in doiing 'things' you're attempting to do than it is to go out and spend your time, effort and money to make your own mistakes to learn the same things?

Bob999 · Apr 2, 2010

Gary Slusser said:
Thank you. I'm glad I could help you do the right thing.

So now you are taking credit for other peoples actions. As I said I corrected my post two days ago and you have continued to bash me for two days after I corrected it.
So now you edit my posts that you are replying to to substantively change what I said.

You have demonstrated that you are one very unscroupulous individual.

What I actually posted was:

Bob999 said:
I corrected that 2 days ago. So why do you keep reposting it? Do you think you are somehow making a point by continually going over the same thing? (emphasis added)

I have acknowledged that my original post was incorrect and posted correct information.

If you raise this again you are simply attacking me in violation of the rules of this board.

NHmaster3015 · Apr 2, 2010

Gary Slusser said:
Yes I think you generalized because you actually said; Originally Posted by Wally Hays As a general rule, all traps need vents....

That's not a generalization it is the code. All traps need vents

And since bunches of things not to code "work" as you say, help Thinkup out here, do you think this Tee etc. will work for him or not?

I don't know how to say this with any more clarity. I never said it will not work, I said it does not meet code. Am I missing something or are you?

Yes over time a couple lbs less water pressure can make a big difference by causing incomplete backwashing, channelization and clumping problems but more important is dirt build up in the bed which prevents the mineral from buffering the acid in the water and premature replacement of the whole bed.

But all water systems vary in pressure throughout the day and depending on use. Most residential systems don't even have a gauge that is accurate enough to worry about 2lbs.

Do you agree with me that it is easier to listen and learn from others that have experience in doing 'things' you're attempting to do than it is to go out and spend your time, effort and money to make your own mistakes to learn the same things?

Yes indeed, and that is why I pointed out the code errors in the drainage piping so that others will hopefully not make the same mistakes.

Gary Slusser · Apr 3, 2010

Bob999 said:
So now you are taking credit for other peoples actions.

No, I'm saying that I helped you do the right thing which was to finally mention that you had corrected your error days ago and to finally admit that you had made the error that for days and 3 pages of posts afterward you had been denying making that or any error.

Bob999 said:
As I said I corrected my post two days ago and you have continued to bash me for two days after I corrected it.

Yes I kept mentioning the error you failed to tell anyone about after you deleted it and replaced the wrong statement with correct info.

Bob999 said:
So now you edit my posts that you are replying to to substantively change what I said.

Yes you did correct the error as if it never happened and the only way anyone would know you made the error is due to my quoting it when I said you were wrong and identified the error. And unless those of us involved in the thread went back and saw your correction of the error, that delay allowed you to continue to deny you made the error. Shame on you but....

No, I didn't change anything you said when I edited out of the quote what I wasn't replying to. What I quoted is letter for letter what you said and in the order you said it. Well that's unless you have gone back now and changed/edited the original, as you did with your incorrect info (error) in post #65.

Bob999 said:
You have demonstrated that you are one very unscroupulous individual.

Since I caught you being "unscroupulous", please show us where you think I have been "unscroupulous", because your saying I am doesn't make it so.

Gary Slusser · Apr 3, 2010

Sorry, I still say that your As a general rule, all traps need vents.... is a generalization.

Wally Hays said:
Yes indeed, and that is why I pointed out the code errors in the drainage piping so that others will hopefully not make the same mistakes.

I think you are mistakenly thinking that a DIYer did that plumbing.

The home owner and the OP of this thread told you he did not do that work and that all he did was add the trap and stand pipe. He also said he bought the house recently and has no problems with the drain system and he had a home inspector inspect it before buying it and none of this was mentioned as not being to code. I can't see any house inspector making that kind of serious error.

And now you have told him that he has to redo it all now when he installs his new water filter and softener....

Water Softener with RO and Ph (acid) Neutralizer Install Help

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