Softener system for new home - ATTN GARY

Users who are viewing this thread

Gary Slusser

That's all folks!
Messages
6,921
Reaction score
22
Points
38
Location
Wherever I park the motorhome.
Website
www.qualitywaterassociates.com
Clack lists a 15lb service pressure drop for all three valves
The 1" flows 27 gpm, the 1.25 flows 34 gpm and the 1.50 flows 60 gpm.
They also list a few other things.

If I recall correctly the cold water supply piping is 1 1/2 which by code dictates an 1 1/2 valve body.
As I've already said, the code calls for no reduction of the ID for the plumbing connections; not the control valve ID or the distributor tube. Possibly you neeed to look that up.

I also remember the SFU being around 44 gpm which is with both mega showers running at the same time, full bore.
Now we are talking half that; 20-22 gpm and 1.25" tubing.

Admittedly that scenario is probably the exception to the rule but it may happen occasionally. So the question is whether or not you go with a smaller valve and unit and occasional get some amount of hard water through the system or you go with a 1 1/2 valve and size for maximum volume.
IIRC he said every morning and I have many softeners in houses with this type shower being used every day and sometimes twice a day.

Based on the regeneration schedule channeling will not be a problem.
 

Gary Slusser

That's all folks!
Messages
6,921
Reaction score
22
Points
38
Location
Wherever I park the motorhome.
Website
www.qualitywaterassociates.com
The other side of the coin with the larger unit is that it is more likely to not see the low flow rate of water, ie 1.5 gpm and lower may not be seen by the meter, what ever meter is used.

Now if one is Always Going to be using 2+gpm then great... but if there is low usage or ice makers ro systems... then that larger meter is not going to see it.
The 1" and 1.25" Clack doesn't have that problem but I'd have to look up the 1.5" metering. Edit: I looked all 3 up and the metering is .25 for the 1 and 1.25" and .5 gpm for the 1.5". So IMO the 1.5" would not be a good choice for residential.

With that much resin and low flow there are other challenges that will come into the picture, channeling will be the biggest and most likely one to happen, not just once but a lot.

Big units are often times on water that is Always Flowing and never stopping.
I consistently sell up to 4.0 cuft softeners and the regeneration schedule prevents channeling. And many years ago I sold a 8 or 10 cuft softener without constant flow without a metering problem. Hotels, motels 24/7 car washes etc. don't have constant flow.
 
Last edited:

Akpsdvan

In the Trades
Messages
1,542
Reaction score
15
Points
38
Location
Alaska
This has turned in to a poll cat marking contest....

And I will not continue down this childish path.
 

NHmaster

Master Plumber
Messages
3,176
Reaction score
5
Points
0
Location
S. Maine
That no reduction thing applies to any fixture or fitting installed in the supply line that has both an inlet and an outlet. In this case the softener does indeed have both. On other words, all the water used in the building flows through the valve head. Therefore you can not reduce through the valve. The distributor tube for all three models matches the valve head for diameter.
 

Bob999

Reporter
Messages
446
Reaction score
0
Points
16
Location
Pennsylvania
The Clack WS-1 has a SFR of 27 gpm @ 15 psi. That means it can be used on a tank up to and including a 21" diameter and that makes a 7.5 cuft softener. The 27 gpm means backwash flow gpm, it has nothing to do with the constant SFR gpm of the softener. The volume of resin dictates the size of the tank and the size of the tank dictates what control is needed to successfully backwash that volume of resin.

Gary, Now I am going to say you are wrong! What I have quoted above is simply wrong! It demonstrates that you simply don't understand some basic facts about water softening equipment and the real world application of the equipment.

I will explain why. I am doing this for readers of this board because you have consistently demonstrated that you have a closed mind.

The post is wrong because the SFR of a water softener is determined by both the control head and the amount of resin in the softener. In the specific case the poster was asking about a softener that will handle a flow of 44 gpm. A Clack WS1 control valve will not provide a flow of 44 gpm at any usable pressure because according to the published specifications for the valve the pressure loss caused by the valve alone during service at a flow of 27 gpm is 15 psi. So even if you put a 7.5 cubic foot tank and the appropriate amount of resin on a 1" valve it will not provide a flow of 44 gpm.

You say that the size of the tank dictates what control is needed. This is partially true. One of the rating factors for softener valves is the size of tank the valve can backwash when used for softening applications. So far so good. A second factor in the choice of a softener valve is that the valve will provide the design flow in service at a reasonable pressure loss. In this case the 1" valve will not provide a flow of 44 gpm at a reasonable pressure loss.
 
Last edited:

Nofears67

New Member
Messages
186
Reaction score
0
Points
0
It is great to see so much info coming from this thread! Some of you have missed an important change...I revised the "full bore" scenario down to 20 gpm...

Normal flows = 0 - 10 gpm
Full bore = 20 - 25 gpm (both showers and say..the dw)
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Bob999

Reporter
Messages
446
Reaction score
0
Points
16
Location
Pennsylvania
It is great to see so much info coming from this thread! Some of you have missed an important change...I revised the "full bore" scenario down to 20 gpm...

Normal flows = 0 - 10 gpm
Full bore = 20 - 25 gpm (both showers and say..the dw)

I understand that your design has changed in the course of the discussion in this thread. I think I made that clear when I responded to your question and said that I thought that the 1.25" valve would provide satisfactory service at the revised design point. It is my opinion, based on my understanding of your objective to provide flows of 20-25 gpm at a robust pressure, that a 1" valve would not be satisfactory--notwithstanding the fact that it would in fact flow at 20-25 gpm--because the pressure drop for the valve head alone would approach 15 psi. The pressure you would see at the point of use would be reduced further pressure loss from fittings, piping, additional valves, and the softener resin/tank.
 

Nofears67

New Member
Messages
186
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Given my limited knowledge of softeners and valves I still believe that an 1.25" valve, along with the 4.0 cu ft resin tank, would be the best choice as long as it would not create a "short circuiting" effect in the system at low flows. I greatly understand hydraulics and pressure losses in water systems but do not know how softener valves function and/or how their sizing affects the performance at given flow rates.
 

Gary Slusser

That's all folks!
Messages
6,921
Reaction score
22
Points
38
Location
Wherever I park the motorhome.
Website
www.qualitywaterassociates.com
Sorry AKpsdvan, I don't understand what this is about; "This has turned in to a poll cat marking contest...." If I guess, I come up with you being upset because you think I'm pickin' nits... I wasn't but at times I think others are.

quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by Skip Wolverton
A 4 cu ft unit on 20 GPG water. You would have to use 500 gallon per day in order to regen every 8 days. IMO, a 4 cu ft is way over sized.

That's because you don't understand how to size or set up a softener by adjusting the K of capacity you need by the salt dose in lbs based on the volume and type of resin you are using so you mistakenly think 120 or128K.


Peter says; "That no reduction thing applies to any fixture or fitting installed in the supply line that has both an inlet and an outlet. In this case the softener does indeed have both. On other words, all the water used in the building flows through the valve head. Therefore you can not reduce through the valve. The distributor tube for all three models matches the valve head for diameter."
Name the code and quote it verbatim or post a link for us. I say it applies to the plumbing connectors, not the porting of the control valve, show me that I'm wrong.

After considerable effort, I found the 2008 MA plumbing code (I think Mass should be 'tighter' than others) Joints and Connections section 10:07 (7) "Increasers and Reducers. When interconnecting pipes and fittings, fittings and fittings, or pipes and fittings that have different sizes the size of the increaser or reducing fittings shall be selected and installed so as to prevent the restriction of flow between the interconnection.".There's nothing in there about fixtures, control valves by pass valves distributor tubes etc..
 

Gary Slusser

That's all folks!
Messages
6,921
Reaction score
22
Points
38
Location
Wherever I park the motorhome.
Website
www.qualitywaterassociates.com
Gary, Now I am going to say you are wrong! What I have quoted above is simply wrong! It demonstrates that you simply don't understand some basic facts about water softening equipment and the real world application of the equipment.

I will explain why. I am doing this for readers of this board because you have consistently demonstrated that you have a closed mind.
I've told you that you are missing something, and you are, I'm right about that Bob. So IMO it is you that has the closed mind.

The post is wrong because the SFR of a water softener is determined by both the control head and the amount of resin in the softener.
Bob, that's one SFR, but there are two for all softeners.

So Bob, I still say you are going on what you read and you are not understanding all of that and then you are missing a few points but, IMO you sound as if you have no actual field or first hand experience.

On the other hand I do have experience based on having sold all but 1300+ Clack WS-1 valves that maintain a record of the highest gpm run through them. I size for the peak demand of the house based on the number of people, bathrooms and the type of fixtures in the house, which is what we are discussing.

For what it is worth, over the last 6 yrs the 21st of last month, I have sold a number of 4 cuft softeners for 2 person showers with up to 6 body sprays and 2-3 shower heads. I proposed one yesterday or Thursday for an airline pilot's house in CO with 3 heads, one a Rainbird I think they call it, and 4 other heads up high on 2 walls. I have used the WS-1 for all of them except that one I haven't sold yet. I have never had a customer tell me they are getting leakage (hard water) through their softener or found that I underestimated their peak demand flow rate. I have never had a customer say they notice a pressure loss either.

And I see that in a later post of yours than this one that I am replying to, you still say a WS-1 is too small for Riverside.

With your going on like this I feel like the anti global warming guy must when he goes against those guys that for 20 yrs have been swearing it is, but are now found to have been using incorrect data while they still insist they're right.

Believe it or not, if I found out I had a customer where I got it wrong, I'd be sending them more resin and a larger tank and/or a larger Clack WS CS valve and distributor tube at my expense.
 

Bob999

Reporter
Messages
446
Reaction score
0
Points
16
Location
Pennsylvania
On the other hand I do have experience based on having sold all but 1300+ Clack WS-1 valves that maintain a record of the highest gpm run through them. I size for the peak demand of the house based on the number of people, bathrooms and the type of fixtures in the house, which is what we are discussing.

For what it is worth, over the last 6 yrs the 21st of last month, I have sold a number of 4 cuft softeners for 2 person showers with up to 6 body sprays and 2-3 shower heads. I proposed one yesterday or Thursday for an airline pilot's house in CO with 3 heads, one a Rainbird I think they call it, and 4 other heads up high on 2 walls. I have used the WS-1 for all of them except that one I haven't sold yet.

I have no doubt that you sell water softeners. I have never questioned that. Selling water softeners from your no fixed address mobile home in wherever certainly isn't hands on experience in my book.

What I do question is your understanding that it is necessary to have both a properly sized control head and a properly sized amount of resin/tank in order to get satisfactory service. Certainly your postings here don't indicate that you understand that basic tenent of equipment selection.

I note you provide no facts or figures or explanations--you just keep putting forward the same old same old ****.
 
Last edited:

Bob999

Reporter
Messages
446
Reaction score
0
Points
16
Location
Pennsylvania
And I see that in a later post of yours than this one that I am replying to, you still say a WS-1 is too small for Riverside.

Gary, There you go again making things up. I never posted saying that a WS-1 is too small for Riverside. I challenge you to quote the alledged post.

Perhaps you are referring to my post where I said that my opinion was that a 1" valve would not provide satisfactory service at a flow of 25 gpm. A Clack WS1 will have a pressure drop of nearly 15 psi at a flow of 25 gpm and I don't think that would be satisfactory.
 
Last edited:

Gary Slusser

That's all folks!
Messages
6,921
Reaction score
22
Points
38
Location
Wherever I park the motorhome.
Website
www.qualitywaterassociates.com
I have no doubt that you sell water softeners. I have never questioned that. Selling water softeners from your no fixed address mobile home in wherever certainly isn't hands on experience in my book.

What I do question is your understanding that it is necessary to have both a properly sized control head and a properly sized amount of resin/tank in order to get satisfactory service. Certainly your postings here don't indicate that you understand that basic tenent of equipment selection.
See now there's something else you're not understanding, I do have a fixed address but I was having a conversation with you and here you are attacking me and getting personal and way off topic.

I talk to 99% of all my customers before they buy and I go over sizing etc. with them for from an hour to an hour and a half. That's over the last 6 yrs and for 18-19 yrs before that I had a fixed address where I was a local dealer serving a 50-80 mile radius of the Milton/Lewisburg PA area. So I feel very comfy in putting my hands on experience up against anyone and especially someone with nothing but having read spec sheets that then doesn't understand everything they read.

I note you provide no facts or figures or explanations--you just keep putting forward the same old same old ****. About what I would expect from a salesman who doesn't know his merchandise as well as he thinks he does.
For 6 months you have been picking at things I say and because of that I have decided that I'm not going to teach you to size a softener or explain to you what you are missing. Well, other than your lack of experience and knowledge.

Here's what I replied to that you said previously: "It is my opinion, based on my understanding of your objective to provide flows of 20-25 gpm at a robust pressure, that a 1" valve would not be satisfactory". As I said previously, you are wrong.
 

Bob999

Reporter
Messages
446
Reaction score
0
Points
16
Location
Pennsylvania
See now there's something else you're not understanding, I do have a fixed address but I was having a conversation with you and here you are attacking me and getting personal and way off topic.

I talk to 99% of all my customers before they buy and I go over sizing etc. with them for from an hour to an hour and a half. That's over the last 6 yrs and for 18-19 yrs before that I had a fixed address where I was a local dealer serving a 50-80 mile radius of the Milton/Lewisburg PA area. So I feel very comfy in putting my hands on experience up against anyone and especially someone with nothing but having read spec sheets that then doesn't understand everything they read.


For 6 months you have been picking at things I say and because of that I have decided that I'm not going to teach you to size a softener or explain to you what you are missing. Well, other than your lack of experience and knowledge.

Here's what I replied to that you said previously: "It is my opinion, based on my understanding of your objective to provide flows of 20-25 gpm at a robust pressure, that a 1" valve would not be satisfactory". As I said previously, you are wrong.

I just for record I never said you have no fixed address--I said you sell from a no fixed address mobile home. I note that you do not deny that my post is true. Your response on this, like so many others, is an attempt to distort the truth or to divert the reader from the truth.

I see no reason to continue a discussion with a salesman who apparently doesn't know important information about the application of the equipment he sells and who continually misrepresents what I have posted. I believe the primary purpose of this board is to share experience and help people with problems. I will continue to do that and ignore any further attacks and bashing from individuals who have demonstrated they aren't worthy of response.
 

NHmaster

Master Plumber
Messages
3,176
Reaction score
5
Points
0
Location
S. Maine
They also list a few other things.

Yes, they do. Pages and pages of other things. but every time they talk about valve flow they talk about a 15 lb. pressure drop through all of their valve heads.


As I've already said, the code calls for no reduction of the ID for the plumbing connections; not the control valve ID or the distributor tube. Possibly you need to look that up.

Being a plumbing inspector I would say you are talking semantics and not the spirit of the code here. It's pretty obvious that if the inlet and outlets are 1" then the "connections" from a 1 1/2" supply would have to be reduced at the valve body. I would not pass it. No inspector, state or local would pass it in this area.

You also state that you have sold softeners to folks with high demand showers etc and they have never complained about hardness leakage. Probably that is true, but on the other hand, I doubt they would notice any leakage in a shower even if it was occurring.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Bob999

Reporter
Messages
446
Reaction score
0
Points
16
Location
Pennsylvania
You also state that you have sold softeners to folks with high demand showers etc and they have never complained about hardness leakage. Probably that is true, but on the other hand, I doubt they would notice any leakage in a shower even if it was occurring.

Perhaps he sold a softener with a 1" valve for the high demand showers and as a result the user never got the high flow because of the pressure drop through the 1" valve head.
 

Skip Wolverton

In the Trades
Messages
167
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Ocala, Fl
Website
www.servicemagic.com
Sorry AKpsdvan, I don't understand what this is about; "This has turned in to a poll cat marking contest...." If I guess, I come up with you being upset because you think I'm pickin' nits... I wasn't but at times I think others are.

quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by Skip Wolverton
A 4 cu ft unit on 20 GPG water. You would have to use 500 gallon per day in order to regen every 8 days. IMO, a 4 cu ft is way over sized.

That's because you don't understand how to size or set up a softener by adjusting the K of capacity you need by the salt dose in lbs based on the volume and type of resin you are using so you mistakenly think 120 or128K.
If your are not using the resin, then why sell it?
 
Top
Hey, wait a minute.

This is awkward, but...

It looks like you're using an ad blocker. We get it, but (1) terrylove.com can't live without ads, and (2) ad blockers can cause issues with videos and comments. If you'd like to support the site, please allow ads.

If any particular ad is your REASON for blocking ads, please let us know. We might be able to do something about it. Thanks.
I've Disabled AdBlock    No Thanks