shower pan question

I had a shower leak, after taking out some of the tile near the floor on the wall, noticed there is no shower pan. so water just seeped through grout and leeched up into closet on other side of wall. Builder sent someone to check it out. He said since the shower is recessed into cement that no shower pan is required. So my question is, is this correct if a shower is recessed below the house floor level, does it still require a shower pan. The water has to go somewhere and i obviously have an issue that was starting to get mold and moisture problems. Totally gutted shower and am going to put in a schluter kerdi shower system. I have started a blog with pics at myshowerremodel.wordpress.com

Industry standards require a waterproof liner that is SLOPED to the drain, regardless of where it is installed. Check out www.johnbridge.com for help on tiling, and www.tileusa.com. This is a common misconception. Concrete is NOT waterproof, and all codes require a waterproof pan. And, that pan must be able to hold water...you can't do that with concrete, it is porous and will leak, thus the liner. Ask him to show you the code that allows a shower without a waterproof pan, he can't, at least in the USA.

That's a great way to invite termites, carpenter ants, and mold damage.

Sorry to hear about your woes. I suppose I shouldn't be amazed to hear about how much shoddy construction goes on, but I still get baffled by hearing how contractors cut corners to save maybe $50 in materials and labor.

I had a similar problem a few months ago -- a 10-year-old shower remodel done by amateurs turned into a 3-month renovation for me including termite abatement. But if I could do it, so can you!

Keep us posted!

mdc10s said:

I had a shower leak, after taking out some of the tile near the floor on the wall, noticed there is no shower pan. so water just seeped through grout and leeched up into closet on other side of wall. Builder sent someone to check it out. He said since the shower is recessed into cement that no shower pan is required. So my question is, is this correct if a shower is recessed below the house floor level, does it still require a shower pan. The water has to go somewhere and i obviously have an issue that was starting to get mold and moisture problems. Totally gutted shower and am going to put in a schluter kerdi shower system. I have started a blog with pics at myshowerremodel.wordpress.com

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I hate to say it but that is common practice in Florida. They form the shower 4" below the slab and pour the slab,footings & shower floor all at the same time.

John

While it may be common, a conscientious inspector would not allow it! Another potential gotcha is the constant source of moisture tends to draw roots. If there are any trees nearby, you might end up with them growing into the shower.

jadnashua said:

While it may be common, a conscientious inspector would not allow it! Another potential gotcha is the constant source of moisture tends to draw roots. If there are any trees nearby, you might end up with them growing into the shower.

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I do agree with you I don't like the way it's done myself. But as far as roots getting in the shower, under that theory they could also show up under the toilet.

John

johnjh2o1 said:

I do agree with you I don't like the way it's done myself. But as far as roots getting in the shower, under that theory they could also show up under the toilet.

John

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Only if the toilet leaked...in a leaking shower, the ground underneath it could be constantly wet. If the toilet is not leaking (and it shouldn't!), there'd be no water around the flange and pipe...it'd be all inside the drain; no leaks, no roots.

So the roots can come up through 4" of concrete. I better go check my pool.

John

If there's a crack, yes. Your pool almost certainly has a coating on it, it's not just straight concrete. And, the concrete they use for a house foundation probably isn't the same as used on a pool's gunite (sp?) with probably a plaster coat.

After looking through the florida building code for the year the house was built. It states that all showers have some type of shower pan or waterproofing system, with the exception of when the cement is recessed atleast 2" below house floor level. Which is in my case. So technically, everything with my shower was done to minimum code. But if it is to code, how come water is seeping under the stud walls and a couple feet into the closet on the other side of the wall. I will have to go talk to other neighbors who have my model of home and see if they are having similiar issues. But since the builder did the work to code, not sure who is at fault or liable in this case. Very frustrating. Thanks for all the great replies to my original post. Will certainly be posting more and be a regular visitor during this shower build.

The TCNA shower construction guidelines that many codes are built on call for there to be a waterproof, sloped liner, and a vapor barrier behind the walls. There are numerous alternative methods, some substitute a surface membrane or other waterproofing treatment. If a shower is built to those standards, the supporting walls would not get wet even if the tile were not present. None of their approved methods omit a liner and vapor barrier or surface membrane. WIthout those features, any moisture trapped in the pan will wick up the walls and could lead to problems, especially if the grout has failed or there's no caulking where there should be. Again, if it is built to those TCNA guidelines, what you saw would not happen. As noted earlier, my favorite method is a surface membrane (Kerdi), but I would feel comfortable using any of the approved methods. What's paramount is the quality of the workmanship and an approved method (I think FL dropped the ball!). It doesn't really cost much more to do it once per one of the TCNA approved methods, especially when you consider having to redo it to fix the damage caused by a failed install!

I've read of some tests that show moisture will wick as much as 6" up cbu panels when sitting in standing water that can exist with a poorly constructed pan. A major reason why a sloped liner and a vapor barrier are needed in a shower to protect the walls behind. Even with that, if poor workmanship clogged up the drain's weep holes, you can get standing water inside of the pan under the tile.

quote; under that theory they could also show up under the toilet.

That is NOT a theory but a fact. I have had DOZENS of toilets with roots growing out of the floor around the pipe, then traveling around the flange, between the flange and the wax seal, then into the toilet drain line. The root that starts this is usually about the size of a pencil lead, but once it gets into the pipe it grows into a 3" diameter by a foot or more in length. I had one customer who had roots growing out of his sink drain pipe. After checking it for breaks, I told him the only way I could see it happening was if the toilet was also plugged up. He said, "Oh, the toilet has been plugged up for months, I just couldn't afford to have it unplugged". When I removed the toilet there was a mass of roots which had grown back to the drain line, then grew UP and DOWN the pipe. The up ones went to the lavatory, the down ones helped anchor the roots from being pulled out. I gently pulled as much as possible, until the fine roots broke off. Then I used an electrical wire "Chinese finger trap" puller to grab the next batch. Finally I had to get a much larger one to grab the 3" diameter mass. I was able to pull most of them out and told him to start pouring pool acid down the sink drain every week or so to burn the rest of the roots out. The biggest problem is trying to keep them from growing back, which is almost impossible, so every 6 months or so you have to go back and do it again.