What are some of the drawbacks of switching over from gas WH to Electric?

vtxdude said:

If it wasn't drafting correctly wouldn't I be getting spillage of CO in my basement? 2 detectors within 6 feet of it and nothing

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I think I have told you this before and I think you seem to refuse to believe me but:

A properly burning gas appliance will NOT produce carbon monoxide.

get another gas heater

get a better brand ofgas heater andthe problem will probably go away...

SEARS WATER HEATERS
ARE 100% COMPLETE .....DOG SHI/....


get a Rheem or bradford white and that will solve the problem


call sears and say you want it taken out and a
refund if the unit is still under the first wyear warranty..

theya re having nothign but problems with this
brand.... look at this link and read for yourself

http://baheyeldin.com/technology-in-society/mistaken-identity-help-with-kenmore-water-heater.html

Doherty Plumbing said:

I think I have told you this before and I think you seem to refuse to believe me but:

A properly burning gas appliance will NOT produce carbon monoxide.

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No I believe you!!! maybe I am missing what you are saying....so let me ask this....the water heater appears to be drafting correctly....but I still get some sort of smell after it has been running for a few minutes...flame in sight window seems a bit lazy....seems to be soot under hood a bit....and the combustion smell

Could it still have all these things and be burning correctly? I'm not being wise here..I am asking an honest question

Mark if I knew that the smell and other associated problems I have been having with the water heater would go away with Bradford White I would do it in a heart beat....I noticed that the BW and even the GE's at Home Depot have the air intake on the sides rather than at the bottom like the Sears??? Could this be part of the issue I am having with air flow? Could that be producing combustion smells?


As it stands now I am planning on going to the electric BW next week I've just been so wary of the gas water heater..never was before with my Vanguard but this Sears one has been a nightmare...I have only had heater for about a month.....will Sears take it back??? I have a feeling it won't be easy to get a refund

I'm just curious Mark, none of the issues I read on that site have affected me....yet....seems like a lot of thermocouple and pilot issues



I'd still like to know why and where that smell is coming from

vtxdude,


I pinned you down on some exact pinpointing steps to resolve your issue with your water heater, about that draft gauge, #460 air meter from dwyer.

I discussed fpms, *feet per minute* draw to determine the problem if that flue chase is pulling those combustion gases up that flue.


I then asked you to pull that base cap off the tee that serves the vertical of that stack, and I still haven't seen you do anything to that effect.


Now, I watched you start numerous threads, "claiming" you care about your family, but you are implying the exact opposite by ignoring what you call the "good professionals" here on this forum board.


Tell me why you are ignoring my crucial advice that pinpoints the issue of whether or not that flue is drawing to the roof,

Tell me why you can't do for yourself what others are not doing for you at this point (sears installers)


You whining to Sears is getting you nowhere is it? There's no way you took any of the advice from here, or me and shot it to sears to demand a properly working unit.


And now you're drifting away from the gas water heater to electric, double or triple spending at this point because you don't know how to analyze a problem, target the issue and nail it to the cross and fix the damn problem.

You got the sympathy of many that you were wronged on the install, but I can tell you without a doubt; that water heater is not the problem, it's the flue it's attaching to and since Sears touched it, they own the responsibility to fix it because they cannot touch a water heater and not assume the responsibility to make it operate properly.

You are dropping the ball worse than they are because you haven't dug in and fixed it by means of addressing the responsible parties to demand it be done, correctly.

I'm starting to think your overreaction is just the impulse decision to enjoy the audience you are building, because I'm counting the days you've been tinkering with this issue, and that water heater probably has been running every day.


So here's the speculation you create when you sit and ponder "what do I do" semantics:

Attention?

IF, you cared about your family you'd be out of that house, hammering those phones to Chicago Illinois at the Sears headquarters and living in a hotel room with sears footing the bill the whole way through.


But you haven't bought a draft gauge to protect you and others
You haven't pulled that cap off to look up that flue
You are using an internet community for something other than your plumbing related problems.

The answers have been here all along and you just keep ignoring the pertinent ones, glancing over.

Better ask yourself why, and you better think who has the best interest of your family when you're showing the world how much you don't care at this point.


Sometimes when things aren't even your own fault, you have to stand up for yourself and others and protect when situations like this happen.

^^^^

I shouldn't have to tell you this, I really shouldn't.

Dunbar, I do appreciate your comments...seriously I do....not really understanding a lot that is being told to me is part of the issue...I'm sure it comes natural to a lot of you but for me it is difficult to follow...I have done a few things...I have gotten the HVAC guys in here and the negative pressure issue that was causing the draft to be sucked down the flue and caused the spillage that melted the red and blue rings has been eliminated...with furnace on the cellar door will no longer be slammed and sucked shut...I did look up the flue by taking the cap off of the bottom of the T..I could not see daylight but it is a pretty long run with a cap with small holes on the end....I'm not sure how much light I should have seen..I will look again tomorrow


The only thing I find wrong in your posting is that I am just looking for an audience... no not at all only for advice..and yes I am taking it all in trust me...my flue routing is not the best but the way stuff is in my cellar i really don't have a choice unless I rip my furnace out and move it. The problem is only when the water heater runs and I have been dealing with it by keeping the cellar shut until it runs and the smell dissipates....I have missed more work trying to address this issue than I care to count.....

I will look into that draft meter...where can I get it...Lowes?

I really do appreciate what you have to say and please believe me when I say that I'm not playing some game here...seriously...different people understand things differently...takes me a bit longer to understand it thats all

vtx- If you would like to get this fixed or attempt to thru Sears again try contacting:

Brian J. Sears Case Manager Sears Cares Team

searscares@searshc.com

Provide a contact phone # with your e-mail.



Personally I have an electric water heater and always have. If cost is an issue (electric rate) you might try putting it on a timer. I have never tried that. Where I live the electric rate is cheaper than gas..

In another thread, he talks about problems with his furnace and the return duct...he probably got this fixed once the return problem was resolved.

No combustion device can work well if it doesn't have free access to sufficient air to support the combustion and exhaust.

I read that after posting my response to him in that thread.


The very reason I was posting about testing draw up that flue. That would of led to a far sooner conclusion once a draft test would of shown little or no air movement required.


Some of my best education on water heaters was being a grunt installer for 4 product brands being forced to be accountable for how we installed those heaters.

prd823 said:

vtx- If you would like to get this fixed or attempt to thru Sears again try contacting:

Brian J. Sears Case Manager Sears Cares Team

searscares@searshc.com

Provide a contact phone # with your e-mail.



Personally I have an electric water heater and always have. If cost is an issue (electric rate) you might try putting it on a timer. I have never tried that. Where I live the electric rate is cheaper than gas..

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If you don't mind me asking how many people are in the household and what size is the WH? I'm trying to gauge how much of an increase I will see with an Electric water heater...

I've seen Brian's name on the other Sears board.....I wonder if he can help on getting the Sears heater out of my house!

What you need are the amount of BTU/therm (100000), and watts/BTU (3.412142). Then, look at the local utility rates. You'll quickly see that (at least in NH), gas is a lot cheaper to heat with. I haven't run the numbers recently, but all of the conversions needed have been posted here, or are available with a quick search on the web. You have your utility bills, and can find the cost/unit.

The caulk they used might be the source of the smell.

jadnashua said:

What you need are the amount of BTU/therm (100000), and watts/BTU (3.412142). Then, look at the local utility rates. You'll quickly see that (at least in NH), gas is a lot cheaper to heat with. I haven't run the numbers recently, but all of the conversions needed have been posted here, or are available with a quick search on the web. You have your utility bills, and can find the cost/unit.

The caulk they used might be the source of the smell.

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'ceptin' you need to multiply the therms by the operational efficiency of the heater to get the DELIVERED BTUs. Typically 90% of the kwh used in tank heater end up as hot water entering your plumbing, whereas with gas fired tanks 60% is more the norm. For every therm used, figure you get only 600000BTUs (0.6 therms) out of the tank, and for every kwh used you get 0.9kwh out of the tank. So if you're paying $1/therm you're getting 60,000 BTUs/$. The same 60000BTUs would be delivered using 60000/(3413 x 0.9)= 19.5kwh So it takes 5.1cent's kwh to be cost-competitive with $1/therm gas.

Do your own math with your own utility rates, but rare is the market where NG is a cheaper way to heat hot water. If you live in 5cents/kwh land maybe... (In my neighborhood heating water with electricity vs. gas in a bottom-of-the-line efficiency gas tank is a 3x cost multiplier!)

Putting an electric hot water tank on a timer has an almost vanishingly small effect on how much you pay, unless it's a big tank and your billing arrangement with the utility is peak-demand or time-of-day metered, and you heat it up only with cheap off-peak kwh, coasting through peak demand periods. Standby losses add up to about 0.5-1kwh over a 10 hour period and doesn't drop appreciably until the temperature of the tank is 10s of degrees cooler, which doesn't happen overnight. The vast majority of that small bit of power you didn't use in the off period gets spent bringing the tank back up to temp. The bulk of the energy spent in electric tanks is getting the 45-60F water up to 120F+. If you saved more than 0.1kwh/day (35kwh/year) you'd be lucky. That's less than $10/year except in extreme electric rate situtaions (tiny oil-fired isolated-grid island utilities, etc.)


Still, nickel kwhs are rare, $1 therms common... What it is in your neighborhood is on the utility bills.

Dana-

I'm not sure but are you making a case for the electric hot water heater over the NG one?

vtxdude said:

Dana-

I'm not sure but are you making a case for the electric hot water heater over the NG one?

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Do the math, you decide what makes sense for you.

For ME electric makes absolutely no sense at all!!! It would cost me at least 3x as much to heat with hot water (since I'm heating with ~80% efficiency using the heating system, not in a cheapo standalone tank at 60% efficiency), and electric would give me much slower recovery times etc. etc.

I'm just sayin' to do the math correctly you have to apply the proper efficiency factors, not just the raw fuel-energy equivalents, so that you can compare apples to apples, gallons of HW to gallons of HW, for what price. 1kwh=3413 BTUs only in a lab, not at the output of a hot water heating appliance. But even though the typical gas water heater is sending 40% up the flue and into the surrounding air rather than in the water vs. 10% in the electric tank case, gas is still a heluva lot cheaper in most places.

Put it this way: If you're paying a buck/therm for gas, you'd need to have 5 cent/kwh or less electric rates to be cost competitive with gas.

...or...

If you're paying the national average of ~12cents/kwh, gas would have to cost $2.40/therm or less to beat electricity on cost.

This year my electricity is over 15cents/kwh and my gas is about a buck a therm year. I've not paid less than 12 cents/kwh in nearly 20 years, and I've NEVER paid over $1.75/therm. Never has electric hot water heating been any less than twice as expensive as gas hot water heating in my location. YMMV.

Without knowing your local prices, there's no way of telling what would be the cheaper option for you. But in the vast majority of the US, gas is going to be a MUCH cheaper way to heat hot water- it's not even close. But it might be if your electric rates are exceptionally low, and your gas rates significantly higher than average.

Dana, you had a typo in your post, so it looks like you are saying electric is cheaper...

I'm at about 0.07/kwh here. Electric is easier and not much more expensive. I may switch to gas (at least for heating). I have an electric furnace. That thing kills my wallet as it is. I would really hate to be paying 0.15/kwh with that thing!

jadnashua said:

Dana, you had a typo in your post, so it looks like you are saying electric is cheaper...

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DOH!?! (Should I correct it, or leave it for posterity? )

Do the math, and it'll tell ya what to do, indpendent of my fingers tripping over themselves on the keyboard...

Nukeman- I'd think in Lynchburg you could do pretty well with an air-source heat pump for both heat & AC, which should be considerably cheaper to run than gas if your rates stay that low- less than half what you're paying now. (I'd definitely look at it if I had your utility rates.)

nukeman said:

I'm at about 0.07/kwh here. Electric is easier and not much more expensive. I may switch to gas (at least for heating). I have an electric furnace. That thing kills my wallet as it is. I would really hate to be paying 0.15/kwh with that thing!

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We are up to about 0.12/kwh here. We hit 0.14-0.15/kwh when I was in Texas.

Gas is running about 0.75/therm here this winter, but about ~$1/therm is normal.

Our neighbors use a geothermal heatpump and they also have a gas furnace. They are older people (80+) and keep in really warm in there. I was in their house last Feb. and I was sweating with a T-shirt. lol

What I don't like about heat pumps is the low air temperature they put out. It would be easy to install one as I already have central AC.

To give you an idea, the peak that the two of us have used is about 4400 kwh in one month. LOL That is not heating upstairs for the most part, turning off heat at night and when away, and keeping the main floor at like 67F. We have since added a layer of R30 to the attic and the peak since that time has been more like 3300 kwh. House is a bit over 3000sq.ft, 40 years old, single pane glass.

If I kept the whole house toasty all of the time, I would probably have a $600 electric bill. At 0.15/kwh, I bet I could hit $1000+! ouch!

At least our winters are short and mild for the most part. There is less than 3 months of significant heating. I am remodeling the basement now, so it would be probably the best time for running a flue for a HE gas furnace if I were to go that route. Only thing that I don't like about gas is paying for having the service during all the months where I am not using any gas. Not a big deal, but something to consider.

Kent

vtxdude said:

No I believe you!!! maybe I am missing what you are saying....so let me ask this....the water heater appears to be drafting correctly....but I still get some sort of smell after it has been running for a few minutes...flame in sight window seems a bit lazy....seems to be soot under hood a bit....and the combustion smell

Could it still have all these things and be burning correctly? I'm not being wise here..I am asking an honest question

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You were missing what I was saying because I was saying that just because your CO detectors weren't going off doesn't mean you weren't getting spillage as a properly burning appliance won't be producing CO to trip your detectors.

I'm glad you go this problem fixed.