What type of pipe??????

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NHmaster

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Yes, but only for service pipe. Water service pipe must terminate at or before the main water shutoff valve, located where the water service pipe enters the structure. In this case, since the tank and equipment are within the garage and the garage is defined as a structure, you can not use PVC.
 

FloridaOrange

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Yes, but only for service pipe. Water service pipe must terminate at or before the main water shutoff valve, located where the water service pipe enters the structure. In this case, since the tank and equipment are within the garage and the garage is defined as a structure, you can not use PVC.

Gotcha. Thanks for the response and clarification.
 

Bob999

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Yes, but only for service pipe. Water service pipe must terminate at or before the main water shutoff valve, located where the water service pipe enters the structure. In this case, since the tank and equipment are within the garage and the garage is defined as a structure, you can not use PVC.

I don't profess to be an expert but simply reading the information you wrote above--you wrote "Water service pipe must terminate at or before the main water shutoff valve". As I understand that it says that PVC may be used up to be "main water shutoff valve". So it appears to me, assuming that the quoted statement is correct, that the installer must know where the "main water shutoff valve" is located to make a determination how far PVC may be used.

In the posters case he said the garage was a separate structure from the residence. In your first sentence you refer to "the structure". In your second sentence you refer to "a structure" It seems to me these two terms may have different meanings in the posters case. If the residence is the structure being served by the water system the code would seem to allow the use of PVC up to the main shut off valve in the residence.

In any event it would be prudent to consult with the local code office/inspector to determine the local interpretation of the code prior to doing the install.
 

NHmaster

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Bob, let me clarify the post a bit. some might think that you could say run the PVC across the basement and then put a valve on and go from there. But another code says that there must be a full port, full open shutoff valve located as close to the entry point and before the water meter. If the OP is really concerned though, the smart thing would be to make a phone call to the building dept and ask the inspector what he will and will not accept. You would hate to install everything only to have to tear it out and start over. Ultimately it comes down to the inspectors discretion.
 

Bob999

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Bob, let me clarify the post a bit. some might think that you could say run the PVC across the basement and then put a valve on and go from there. But another code says that there must be a full port, full open shutoff valve located as close to the entry point and before the water meter. If the OP is really concerned though, the smart thing would be to make a phone call to the building dept and ask the inspector what he will and will not accept. You would hate to install everything only to have to tear it out and start over. Ultimately it comes down to the inspectors discretion.

Thanks for the clarification. I fully agree with your point about asking--as you can see from my previous posts.

The original poster has a well. Perhaps this makes a difference--for example, there is no water meter with a well. Also, in the posters case, he made no mention of water usage within the garage that was a separate structure from the residence getting the water service and that would suggest that the actual point of entry into the house is downstream of all the plumbing he was asking about. Perhaps the piping he was asking about would appropriately be considered part of the water service rather than part of the distribution system.

Do the model codes specifically address such issues--beyond what you posted about prior to the water meter and "close" to the entry point--or is it really just up to the local authorities to deal with such details?
 

NHmaster

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You can actually pipe PVC from the well to the structure. Note I said structure. Yes, things get a little gray here and depend a lot on the inspectors interpretation. I/E, would a well house be a structure? So though well systems are different the interpretation of the code should not be.
 

Bob999

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You can actually pipe PVC from the well to the structure. Note I said structure. Yes, things get a little gray here and depend a lot on the inspectors interpretation. I/E, would a well house be a structure? So though well systems are different the interpretation of the code should not be.

My understanding is that the codes differentiate between supply (providing water to the served structure) and distribution systems (distributing the water within the served structure). PVC is allowed in supply systems. It is not allowed in distribution systems. I THINK there is agreement up to this point.

Seems to me there is no doubt that a well house is "a structure". However it is not clear to me that it is "the structure" that is apparently referred to in the codes. (This is why I pointed out earlier that in one sentence you referred to "the structure" and in another sentence you referred to "a structure".)

The question becomes what is the line of demarcation between the supply system and the distribution system. It seems to me--but as I have previously stated I am not an expert, and I don't have access to the codes--that a reasonable argument can be made that a pressure tank in a private well system is part of the supply system. The rationale being that creating/maintaining pressure is part of the supply system. Similarly a chlorination or UV system and an acid neutralizing filter in a well system would seem to be part of the supply system and not the distribution system.

Do the codes speak specifically to the above examples--or is it up to local codes or inspector discretion? I ask because it seems to me that such distinctions are important in this forum which is specifically labeled "Pumps and Wells Forum".
 

NHmaster

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Unfortunalty no, there is no direct answer. If I was an inspector I would allow pvc within a well house, probably within a detached garage also. But you just never know without asking.
 

Gary Slusser

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Us Rednecks, as if we are going to have an inspection, we believe this is one of those things the Urban Pukes are talking about when they say it's best to ask for forgiveness than asking for permission.

And inspectors, they get scared when having to leave the safety of the city limits to go out in the country more than a few miles... so I'm not sure one would show up if invited. I think it has something to do with all that chlorine in their city water, but I could be wrong. ;)
 

Gary Slusser

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I actually live this: Wake Up America. It's PAST Time to Fight Back!

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BTW, with no license I knew that sch 40 PVC is approved by all codes for cold potable water use. It is NSF Standard 61 and it is marked as such every 18" to 24". Now IMO, anyone WITH A LICENSE should also now that.
 

NHmaster

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Why yes, indeed I do know it carries NSF cert. along with ASTM cert. Both certifications, certify that the pipe is manufactured to the standards supplied by the manufacturer. Neither NSF nor ASTM actually set those standards, they are set by the manufacturer and the testing agencies make sure that the products meet such standards. Continuing on, The IPC and the UPC and every other plumbing code I have on in my vast library all allow PVC sch 40 pipe and fittings to be used for potable water supply piping that is not within the structure served. In other words it can be used underground. It can be used to say hang a water pump on in a well, and even run from the well to the structure. It can be used outside for sprinkler pipe. It can be used where approved for fire suppression systems (with certain modifications) It must terminate at the main shut off valve within the structure served. From that point on, PVC can no longer be used. Now if that's confusing to anyone then by all means, feel free to purchase a copy of your code book and give it a read, or give your plumbers board a call and ask for their interpretation but as I make a good deal of my living teaching code to not only apprentices but also plumbers that need to get re-certified every year, your inquiries will no doubt give me the chance to once again say I told you so :D For those of you who are not familiar with codes and licensing I realize that the code can be confusing and at times make no sense at all. All I can say is that it is what it is and we all deal with it every day.

Not withstanding Mr. Slussers post above, I can assure you that if you plumb your homes water distribution with PVC it will not pass inspection, so please consult with your local inspector before beginning any plumbing project.
 
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Gary Slusser

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Why yes, indeed I do know it carries NSF cert. along with ASTM cert. Both certifications, certify that the pipe is manufactured to the standards supplied by the manufacturer. Neither NSF nor ASTM actually set those standards, they are set by the manufacturer and the testing agencies make sure that the products meet such standards.
A quick search found this and a quick read seems to disagree with your understanding, or statement. There is not one word about manufactures setting the standard or any other standards. The government does that and CERTIFIES that the manufactures' products comply; (from the nsf.org web site).

Under Standard 61, products are exposed to a special extractant water for three weeks. Because the EPA establishes safe levels for many contaminants, including lead, the analysis must ensure that the concentration found in the extractant water is below regulated levels.
Standard 61 covers everything from the equipment used to treat and store water at a water treatment plant to the distribution pipe, valves and devices in a municipal distribution system, and all the plumbing products in buildings.

For more information about ANSI/NSF Standard 61 and the lead free requirements of the Safe Drinking Water Act, call Peter Greiner at (800) NSF-MARK. He can also be reached by fax at (734) 769-0109 or by email at greinerp@nsf.org.

Continuing on, The IPC and the UPC and every other plumbing code I have on in my vast library all allow PVC sch 40 pipe and fittings to be used for potable water supply piping that is not within the structure served. In other words it can be used underground.
It can also be used above ground, at least to the shut off valve you mention.

Not withstanding Mr. Slussers post above, I can assure you that if you plumb your homes water distribution with PVC it will not pass inspection, so please consult with your local inspector before beginning any plumbing project.
I certainly did not, nor did anyone else mention plumbing their house with PVC.
 

Cass

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Well...the Max. service temp for PVC is 140 F

The Max. service temp for CPVC is 200 F

I will venture a guess that this is why, or at least 1 of the reasons PVC is not allowed except for service to the building...
 

NHmaster

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I try not to get all wound up in symantics. The Op wanted to know what he could use to pipe his system. I am pretty sure that the best advice given to him was to check with his local inspector. If you want to continue to argue the point then by all means go right ahead. If you feel the need to make a career out of picking apart every word in every post than by all means, knock yourself out. I am sure that sooner or later you wll manage to accomplish your goal.
 

NHmaster

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Cass; Hot water & PVC is one issue as is exposure to heat sources and UV which tend to make the pipe brittle. Besides that issue though there is always the problem of transitioning to sizes and materials commonly used at fixtures and such.
 

Gary Slusser

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I've not heard of a max temp for PVC. IIRC it is rated 420 psi @ 73f, and there is a simple formula to determine the decrease in the pressure rating per (IIRC) degree F.

All 6 national codes, and the manufacturers say "for cold water only".

As to why it is not allowed inside a house, I don't know how you are going to get UV inside a building in such strength to effect a PVC water line but, IMO and it's just a guess, PVC is not allowed for political reasons and the potential to cross connect it with the hot water side and, to transition to another type of plastic material, you have to use a female (that is frowned on).

Here is more on the NSF and plumbing codes (I've learned of a 6th National code!!), and especially NSF Standard 61. ALL plumbing codes call for verification (Certification) of all materials used for potable water; the manufactures must meet the standard, they do not set the standard as claimed. At the link is more information about all codes and teh standards they require but I've posted a short excerpt from the link; emphasis is mine.

http://www.nsf.org/business/newsroom/plumbing99-1/ansi_nsf.html

[SIZE=+2]ANSI/NSF Standards Referenced in Codes[/SIZE]

Over time, many plumbing products have received regulatory attention, based on potential risk to public health, safety and the environment. Regulations and model codes have been developed that require independent, third-party verification that the product complies with the minimum specifications at the point of production and in the marketplace. This chart summarizes U.S. plumbing codes and the ANSI/NSF Standards they reference. For more information, call Paul Shepard at (602) 562-5061 or John Gronewold at (219) 295-9914.
 
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