Well Storage Tank replacement

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Stonecutter

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I jumped into this discussion because I recently purchased two bladder tanks to hopefully ease the cycling on my pump while watering.
I'm a DIY'er when it comes to wells & plumbing, but I have extensive mechanical experience. Metalwork & welding, soldering, basic electrical, basic plumbing, carpentry, tools, machinery, etc are all things I have pretty good knowledge and experience with.

I thought sammy's reply to my question was extremely helpful, and not at all condescending, and he did not attempt to sell me anything on an allegedly non commercial website. I liked that. If he was located near me I would call him to do work for me in a heartbeat.
 

Gary Slusser

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I jumped into this discussion because I recently purchased two bladder tanks to hopefully ease the cycling on my pump while watering.
I'm a DIY'er when it comes to wells & plumbing, but I have extensive mechanical experience. Metalwork & welding, soldering, basic electrical, basic plumbing, carpentry, tools, machinery, etc are all things I have pretty good knowledge and experience with.

I thought sammy's reply to my question was extremely helpful, and not at all condescending, and he did not attempt to sell me anything on an allegedly non commercial website. I liked that. If he was located near me I would call him to do work for me in a heartbeat.
Since you already said your larger tank(s) were installed, how could anyone sell you something? I don't sell pumps, tanks or CSVs and you jumped into someone's thread and I didn't attempt to sell you or him anything. I'm the one that answered your question first. You then said you couldn't understand what I meant and I attempted to clarify. And if you hired Sammy or anyone else to do well, pump or tank etc. work at your house, you wouldn't be a DIYer.

Now I think you took offense at my comment "I thought what I said was self explanatory" which was not meant to be condescending; it was a statement as to what I thought.

Here is my first reply:
Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
You should be aware of the fact that the larger draw down means you pull a low producing well down farther than with a smaller tank and, you take all that additional water out of the well all at once. That can cause water quality and other problems.

***********
Gary,
Would you mind elaborating on that?
I plumbed in larger capacity tanks to my system, but they will only service my outside hose bibs. I have a deep well, around 700 feet, which produces in the 2-3 gpm range. I don't know what the static water level is. I plan to only allow the pump to fill the larger tanks while watering.
I'm curious what other problems I have set myself up for.
TIA
*******************
What I told you is true.

When your pump comes on to refill these tanks, it will run until they are full and shut off unless your water use gpm is equal to or greater than the pumps delivery gpm. That is true. Now compare how far down that pulls the well to a smaller tank that refills at half the volume of the larger tank. The larger will pull it down roughly twice as far than the smaller tank has ever pulled it down. That's true, and that can cause water quality problems like in Sammy's video because the water flows into the well faster with no resistance and washes out the area as compared to when the area is under water. That is true.

Sammy didn't agree with any of that.

And although it's too late for you, a CSV and a small tank costs much less, takes up much less space and is much easier and quicker to install and is the best choice FOR THE OP and OTHERS reading this thread now and into the distant future. That's also true and even Sammy agreed in the first reply after you asked me to explain my previous comment. And anyone with a couple wrenches and the desire can install a CSV; and I'm sure you agree with that but Sammy says the person should call a PRO to install it.

You've been given very good advice and you don't get that from Joe down the street or you wouldn't be here asking us pros for advice and for you to think we shouldn't sell something for our time and effort and knowledge we freely donate.... well I think that's a bit selfish and idealistic but if you want noncommercial, you should have gone to a government or university web site and taken your chances with amateurs.
 

Stonecutter

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Thank you Gary,

This time you did answer my question to you when you said:

"The larger will pull it down roughly twice as far than the smaller tank has ever pulled it down. That's true, and that can cause water quality problems like in Sammy's video because the water flows into the well faster with no resistance and washes out the area as compared to when the area is under water."

I did not catch anything about the washout problem in your earlier post. You only told me the water level would go down.

I'm not trying to ruffle feathers & egos here. I just kind of thought your slam to sammy was uncalled for.

I'll go back to lurking now.

Thanks for your free advice.
 

Gary Slusser

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Thank you Gary,
You're welcome.

This time you did answer my question...
Great, and yet I still can't see what you couldn't understand about my first answer;
Originally Posted by Gary Slusser
You should be aware of the fact that the larger draw down means you pull a low producing well down farther than with a smaller tank and, you take all that additional water out of the well all at once. That can cause water quality and other problems.
***********

I did not catch anything about the washout problem in your earlier post. You only told me the water level would go down.
Sorry, Sammy had not posted the link to his video yet but, IIRC you did view it and comment on it before asking me to elaborate. Maybe not until after but I did elaborate and you still couldn't get it until my 3rd reply. I promise I'll do better next time.

I'm not trying to ruffle feathers & egos here. I just kind of thought your slam to sammy was uncalled for.
I see ;), but obviously you missed the fact that Sammy has been slamming everything I say here and on a number of other forums for at least a year.

Now I see he says he's leaving. I'm sorry he chose to do that, and yet I'll enjoy the loss of his constant personal attacks. Which he is doing again in his whiny good bye.
 

Stonecutter

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Post #19 I asked you to elaborate, because I wanted to know what the problem with lowering the level was.

I only wanted to know what problems you were eluding to in #18.

In post number #21 you again told me I was lowering the water level.

In #23 I asked again what the logic behind lowering levels causing problems.
Nobody came out & said "cave in".

Excuse me for being so thickheaded as to not read between the lines, but I truly did not get it:confused:

Sorry my quoting skills leave a bit to be desired, I type like S#!+
 

Gary Slusser

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Well we all got it now except for a cave in. In my 16-18 year experience and the 7-8 counties I worked in, I think I may have heard of 2-3, so lets make it 5 wells that had any type of "cave in". All the wells in that area are all rock bore wells. The population was running somewhere around 250-350k with possibly 5-6 out of 10 having their own well.
 
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I emailed Amtrol to see what size tank they recommended:

I said:
I currently have an Amtrol RT42T Tank.
I am looking to replace this tank with a Well-X-Trol bladder tank.

According to my well completion report:
Well was drilled: October 1993
Well Depth: 245 feet
@ 245 Feet, 5 gallons per minute
Static Water level is 40 Feet

Pump is a Goulds 1/2HP Submersible Pump

My house currently has only 1 bathroom. I am eventually planning on adding another full bathroom.
Currently, there are 3 people in the house (2 adults, 1 toddler), eventually it will be a total of 4 people.

Here are my questions:
1. What tank do you suggest?
2. What is the largest tank I should/could use?

They responded:
Based on the info you gave me the WX-202 20 gallon tank would be the min size tank for your system. You cannot over size a well tank and if you are expanding I would use a WX-205 34 gallon tank or a WX-250 44 gallon tank.



So I am probably gonna go with the WX-250.

Will let you know how it turns out.
 

Gary Slusser

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Mike, they sell tanks... A 1/2 hp pump comes with many different wet end gpm ratings; usually 5 gpm to 15+ gpm meaning, each size will deliver more or less gpm thena another and take more or less time to do it. Time is the key.

You size a tank based on the draw down gallons of the tank which dictates the length of time the pump is off between pump starts for proper cooling, which per the pump motor manufacturer is 60 seconds minimum for up to a 1.5 hp motor.

And going to a larger tank, if you have a low producing well, and don't know the static water level, you run the risk of pulling the well down to the point where the pump sucks air or it can not build sufficient pressure to shut itself off. That can overheat a motor and the thermal overload can shut it off due to too much heat. You also expose more of the inside of the well to air that has not been exposed with smaller draw downs, that can cause water quality problems.

The best choice to reduce pump starts and prevent pulling the well down farther than needed is a small pressure tank and a CSV. That is hundreds of dollars less expensive and it takes up the least space and helps the tank to last much longer than one that is cycled more frequently regardless of its size. And all pump motors are rated for continuous operation.
 
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Replacement Tank Installed

Got the replacement tank installed today.
When they removed the old tank, there was quite of bit of rusting/pitting on the old tank. Glad I had it replaced before it leaked!

Cut in/Cut out pressure set at 68/48.

Links to pictures attached.

Amtrol WX-255 Tank

How does the install look? Rather standard install, I assume.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3564/3389827367_80bed2bcfe_b.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3453/3389827823_0728164ce3_b.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3452/3390641408_df2c193961_b.jpg
 

Gary Slusser

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FYI, in connecticut I have never seen a tank sit directly on the floor (on blocks) and always has a check valve.
If I lived wherever a check valve was required at the tank, and the installer insisted he install one and did, I'd remove it after he left. It is not needed and hides leaks between the tank and the sub pump or foot valve in the well. A leak is not a good thing and can lead to seriuos problems; especially with a submersible pump.
 
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Wanted to follow-up again to make sure the new tank and old pump were operating properly.
The pump kicks on at about 43-44 psi.
When the pressure switch clicks, the needle in the gauge shudders/bounces around violently.
The tank begins to fill and the pressure switch clicks again at about 67-68psi and the pump stops running.

It took approximately 2 minutes and 19 seconds to fill the tank.

So, a couple of questions:
1. Is the gauge needle supposed to shudder when the pressure switch kicks the pump on?
2. Does 2 min 19 sec sound right?

Thanks.
 

Speedbump

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That all depends on how much the pump is able to produce. A gauge will flutter like that when there is a vacuum on the pipe in front of that check valve that shouldn't be there in the first place.

bob...
 

Speedbump

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I thought we already discussed that. There is one in the pump and that is all there should be. The one up top can only mask future problems and could help contaminate your drinking water.

bob...
 
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