Hack Plumber? ... Oops -NO a licensed plumber!

Im sorry I have to post Did my 4 yrs,passed in 1990 100%.Code differ.
Start when I was young 30 yrs old,so now I cant do it like I did.
But I still have the Knowlage.For little while anyway.

construct30 Im in Lehigh Valley. I have been in HVAC 15 yrs, Plumbing 8 yrs. Starting to install and service plumbing just seemed to be the natural advance. Started servicing small jobs and just kept going. Its a nice challange with all the rules and regs. Evertime I apply for a permit they want my license. I show them the 10 I have from other townships, insurance, and my yrs exp. There dont seem to be a standard here like you said. So in PA what makes you a master, a journeyman, a plumber??? Can they turn you down?

Thanks ,

Larry

Herk said:

Mon Dieu! That was no plumber . . .

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...and no carpenter, if you look at it that way.

construct30 said:

frenchie, that place would take it's own site to discuss, watch how you step.

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No worries, it was two years ago. And (thank god) it wasn't my job - I was working nearby, for the same clients, they asked me to go look at it after they got word that the price needed adjusting.

The beam & posts got completely replaced, and half the floor completely rebuilt. Let me dig a little, I've got some progress pics, somewhere...

Here we go... I can't seem to find half of them, but this ought to give you an idea:


edit: okay, I messed up, and I can't seem to edit the pics part of this post... but the order is wrong.


The bottom pic should be the first one - the new joists had just been put in, with the new beam, but the old joists aren't out, yet.

If anyone remembers the thread where I posted pictures of filtch plate beams? That would be the same beam, installed, in these pics.

I can't find the earlier pics, which shows all the staging they had to put in, in order to replace the beam. It was similar to what you see on the second floor, in the top pic - but twice over, once on each side of the beam.

Next, the top pic, where they'd started filling in the new section. The first set of staging has been replaced with staging under the beam, which is starting to come out, being replaced with the built-up posts that went into the loadbearing wall.

Then the middle pic.

Sorry, don't have pics of anything later.

That looks a lot better!

Yeah, they did an amazing job. Wish I had some pics of the final result.

What you can't tell, is the floor all this is sitting on got completely reframed, as well. And one of the walls.

Man, I felt bad for that crew.

I take it you live in an area where it is hard and expensive to get permits for new construction. They put a lot of time and money into that. The end result looks great. It had to cost a lot.

You know what I would like see now? Is the plumbing&electric&HVAC part of the
project.

construct30 said:

I take it you live in an area where it is hard and expensive to get permits for new construction.

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It's impossible to get a permit for new construction there. National Park. The houses are grandfathered in. You can fix them, but you can't replace them.

They put a lot of time and money into that. The end result looks great. It had to cost a lot.

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Depends on how you measure these things - it only added about 10% to the job, which was a complete gut to begin with, involving some very high-end finishes & etc. 700$ kitchen faucet? ...like that.

cwhyu2 said:

You know what I would like see now? Is the plumbing&electric&HVAC part of the
project.

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Yup. New everything. Sorry, no pics; but they did a nice job.

construct30 said:

Terry in Pa, we use the 2006 International Plumbing Code, if you have one read 305.8 protection against physical damage section.

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Construct30
The codes (both UPC & IPC) are concerned with pipe passing through framing members. Subflooring is not a framing memeber. The orignial picture doesn't show the pipe passing through the joists. What do you do with drains and vents inside walls? Run a steel plate from floor to ceiling? I don't think attaching the pipe to the subfloor is ideal, but I don't think it violates any codes.

IPC 305.8 Protection against physical damage.
In concealed locations where piping, other than cast-iron or galvanized steel, is installed through holes or notches in studs, joists, rafters or similar members less than 1.5 inches (38 mm) from the nearest edge of the member, the pipe shall be protected by shield plates. Protective shield plates shall be a minimum of 0.062-inch-thick (1.6 mm) steel, shall cover the area of the pipe where the member is notched or bored, and shall extend a minimum of 2 inches (51 mm) above sole plates and below top plates

Phil H2 said:

Construct30
The codes (both UPC & IPC) are concerned with pipe passing through framing members. Subflooring is not a framing memeber. The orignial picture doesn't show the pipe passing through the joists. What do you do with drains and vents inside walls? Run a steel plate from floor to ceiling? I don't think attaching the pipe to the subfloor is ideal, but I don't think it violates any codes.

IPC 305.8 Protection against physical damage.
In concealed locations where piping, other than cast-iron or galvanized steel, is installed through holes or notches in studs, joists, rafters or similar members less than 1.5 inches (38 mm) from the nearest edge of the member, the pipe shall be protected by shield plates. Protective shield plates shall be a minimum of 0.062-inch-thick (1.6 mm) steel, shall cover the area of the pipe where the member is notched or bored, and shall extend a minimum of 2 inches (51 mm) above sole plates and below top plates

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And that's why the plumbing inspector passed all those installs in the same fashion on the 2nd roughs. Good find Phil.

As far as the couplings in that copper pipe; when I did new construction the guy I worked for would force us to keep using up pieces of copper coming off the ends of the pipe. Don't dare cut new sections cut to size off 10 footers or he'd hit the roof. He felt with copper couplings being .11 cents at the time that it was cheaper than pulling off a section of new 1/2" copper, $3.41

Those days are loooooooong gone and I believe for good.

Phil H2 I wondered how long it would take some one to read the codes and point that out. I deal with two inspectors and I asked them and both said they would fail that. If you want to do it then by all means do it. I can't believe the number of plumbers that are defending such practices. The intent of the code is to protect the pipes in a home whether they are under ground through joist or under the subfloor. I guess I will have to contact ICC and have them add that part, I guess using common sense is not enough.

The Intent of the code is to protect the public.

cwhyu2 said:

The Intent of the code is to protect the public.

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Sorry, I will be more specific, this section of the code we have been talking about for the past three pages.

I guess this comes down to personal preference. I asked my inspectors and we are on the same page, but maybe some inspectors as well as some plumbers don't see it that way.

I grew up around electricians and reading electrical code books, maybe some of that is clouding my judgement on this. I think I will still refrain from doing it though.

I never said that I liked the pipe attached to the subfloor. I would never do it because I have seen too many subfloors that have had another layer addded with long nails. I wished I was wearing a hardhat everytime I have climbed into an attic or crawl space that looked like a porcupine on a steel diet. Personally, I'd rather see pipes attached to the subfloor than see nails poking through everywhere threatening my scalp. I quoted the code because I don't think the DIYers should be mislead into thinking that pipes (or electrical cable) must be 1-1/2" clear of the face of the subfloor, drywall, or siding. They would think their house has a defect when it does not.

The codes are only a minimum standard. But, it would be ridiculously difficult to wire or plumb a building and keep everything 1-1/2" inside the wall. A person would be hard pressed to keep NM cable within those bounds in a 2 x 4 wall and you could forget about 1/2" copper pipe. That is why they make nail plates for the penetrations through plates and studs( http://www.strongtie.com/products/connectors/NS-NSP-PSPNZ.html ). The code is concerned about where the pipe or cable passes through a framing member. Look at all of the electrical boxes designed for cable; the cable entrance is at the back of the box which places it very close to the drywall or siding on the opposite side of the wall. It would be impossible to use those boxes in a 2x4 wall if the cables needed to be 1" away.

There's code, but there's also: "Contractor warrants that all Work performed pursuant to the Contract shall be performed in a good and workmanlike manner".

Basic common-sense rule of thumb: anytime a pipe (or wire) is secured so that it can't just shift out of the way of a fastener, and it's close to the finish surface, it needs protection.

OK so you don't like section 305 Protection Of Pipes And Plumbing Systems What about IPC 102.9. The inspector becomes god, little g.

The general idea is that pipes and wires are to be run in areas that protect them as much as possible. You can run one wire down a 3.5" stud and it has to be straight as possible and in the middle. Inspectors tend to realize what is and is not possible when building. They still expect any tradesman to do the best job they can, when in their judgment you don't they slap one of those big orange stickers on your permit that says try again. What ever color they use where you live. I guess in this instance that's what this is, a judgment call. Ask your inspector.