Sputtering from every fixture

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MJDuftler

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Hi Folks,

I have a private well, and have been having some serious sputtering issues from all the fixtures in the house lately.

It is intermittent, and varies from not happening at all, to violently shaking and spitting water from any fixture that is used.

We have never had any well problems, and the pressure has always been fairly good.

The pressure switch does not seem to be cycling more than normal, and the pressure seems about the same as always.

It's clear that air is getting into the lines (I can see bubbles swirling into the whole-house filter in time with the noises coming from the pressure tank when a fixture is open).

Is this something that a failing expansion tank could cause, or should I be calling a well-guy?

Thanks,
-Matt Duftler
 

Speedbump

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Should I assume you have a submersible pump? If so, I'll bet you have a check valve at the tank. I see you found a use for the so called "whole house filter" they show you when you have air in the lines. And I thought they were useless!

Let us know if you have a submersible or jet pump and if you see a check valve by the tank.

bob...
 

MJDuftler

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Hi Bob,

Thanks for the reply.

I have a submersible pump.

I don't know if I have a check valve, but I will check once I get home tonight (in about 7 hours).

In terms of isolating where the air is coming from, I have bypassed both the water softener and the filter, so it is not coming from those. The sputtering happens on both cold and hot water fixtures (I have a boiler with a domestic coil).

I have an old picture, but it's not very easy to make out the fittings at the bottom of the tank. I will take a better picture tonight after I look for the check valve. What is the significance if there is a check valve?

Also, what is the standard procedure for troubleshooting whether the air is being introduced by the bladder tank, vs. outside from the well/line.

Thanks,
-Matt
 

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Speedbump

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If I am not mistaken, that is a check valve just right of the tank tee. Where the Poly Pipe connects. That check valve is stopping the water from pressurizing the pipe from the tank to the pump. There is a leak somewhere down the well and while the pump is off, the pipes are filling with air. You don't need that check valve, it should be removed permanently. It's masking your problem and it's getting worse as time goes on. More than likely you will have to pull the pump to inspect the piping in the well.

bob...
 

MJDuftler

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Hi Bob,

So should my 1st step be to pull and replace the pump (it is very old), or to remove the check valve?

How difficult is it to pull a well pump?

I believe it is very shallow (there is an 80' notation on the wall by the well line), and our water table is extremely high.)

Is there a good set of instructions somewhere for pulling and replacing a well pump?

Also, should I bother checking out the bladder tank first, or is there no way that a bladder tank could introduce air into the lines like that?

Sorry for all the questions, but I don't have any experience working with well pumps. I've done a fair bit of plumbing, but nothing with wells.

Thanks,
-Matt
 

Speedbump

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The check valve should be removed regardless. When it is removed, you will see how bad the leak down the well is.

Pulling a pump can be a real can of worms if you don't have help and you don't have any idea of what your doing. You can create problems far and beyond the ones you have now if you slip and drop the pump. So let your conscience be your guide.

The bladder tank can not introduce air into the house. It just stores it temporarilly and sends it out with each cycle.

There are no instructions that I am aware of other than someone giving you a step by step explaination. But they would have to have more info.

bob...
 

Raucina

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I disagree that the check valve is problematic. In fact, it has allowed him to have water [with some air] rather than the tank pushing the water in the tank back down the well. We are able to diagnose the problem with the check valve installed, so I would not consider it a masking of troubles.

-or-

Perhaps his water level is near the pump level and he is pumping some air with water - then the issue of the check valve is moot. Could be a failing well, not a pump or its check valve.

-so-

If he removes the check valve and water does not go back down the well - then we may assume the water pumping level is near the pump intake.
 

Thassler

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I agree with Bob. Same thing happened to my system a while back Matt. My system didn't have the check valve. I bet if you removed the check valve, you would start to see your pump cycle while no water was being used in the house. If you don't, then you may have a water level problem in your well. I actually added a check valve to mine to confirm that the leak was before my pressure tank. It stopped loosing pressure but i started to get air in the lines. I would highly advise not pulling the pump yourself. 80' of pump, wire and water filled pipe is heavy. Call some pros, if they know their stuff, you'll be back to normal in a day. My well is 375', they had mine fixed in less than a day. Good luck...

Trey
Not a pro...
 
R

Rancher

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80' of poly pipe, which you have and a submersible is easily pulled by one man, however Trey at 375' you probably have steel pipe and it will need a pump company.

Rancher
 

Thassler

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Yeah, Ranchers' probably correct. 80' might not be to bad. My only experience was with my 375ftr. After watching all that crap go back down the hole, I swore I'd never try to pull it back out myself. <LOL> - Yep, steel pipe.
 

MJDuftler

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I've recruited 2 friends to help, and 1 of them has done this job twice before (1 of the pumps was 160' down). We've got a come-along and some staging just in case we can't pull it by hand. We're planning on doing the job a week from Tuesday.

thassler, where did your leak end up being? Was it from the threads of the pipe, or did you never actually find out and everything just worked once you replaced the pump and pipe?

I've been watching the pressure the last several days and I am definitely not losing any pressure.

And this may be an ignorant question, but how would a professional check to see if it is the well failing?

I'm inclined to start by replacing the pump, as it is (I believe) 24 years old.

If I start by removing the check valve, whether it is a problem with the well itself, or a leak in the line, I will still have to pull the pump, and the ground's just about to freeze. And I still have water, which is good (especially from my wife's point of view).

On an alternative note, would it be a bad idea to unhook the poly line from the check valve, and run the pump for a while to see if it is actually pumping some air, as opposed to the lines slowly filling with air after the pump shuts off?

speedbump, other than potentially masking the source of the trouble, what are the other negative side-effects of having that check-valve at the tank?

Thanks for all the help,
-Matt
 

Speedbump

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Matt,

Think of a leak down the well. A pinhole leak in the pipe under your lawn. A dog, rain and a check valve in the house. The rain washes what the dog does on the yard down to the pinhole in the pipe under the grass, the leak down the well is pulling a hell of a good vacuum on the pinhole which used to just pull in air, until poochie did his thing and Mother Nature decided that poop and water make a nice slurry. Not only that, but the check valve masking the problem by not cycling the pump, lets the little leak get worse and in some cases, the pump can actually just fall off because of the eaten threads.

bob...
 

MJDuftler

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I wanted to say thanks to everyone here for the help.

We did the job on Monday, and it went just fine.

We pulled the pump out in a little over an hour (including digging to uncover the pit).

Since the pit was bone dry, everything loosened up no problem. I was pretty surprised since it hadn't been touched in 24 years. It was a bit difficult to break the seal to get the cap off; we used two come-alongs and a couple of 2x10's.

The only casualty in taking everything apart was the plastic pipe that went through the center of the cap. I think this was a crappy spot to have plastic, since it seemed to be a crucial point; it went from the poly line to a brass coupling to a plastic nipple (stuck through the well cap) to a brass tee.

Other than the broken plastic piece, we didn't notice anything else wrong. We replaced the pump/motor, the line (used 1 solid 80' length of pipe), and all the fittings and adapters.

We did not change the horizontal length of pipe running into the house.

In the end, everything went back together very easily, and there doesn't appear to be any more air being introduced into the lines.

We were able to replace the pump that came out with the same type & model (a Gould's 1/2hp).

It was interesting to see how high the water table really is. It was about 8' below the top of the casing (and the pump is set at 80').

Thanks again,
-Matt Duftler
 
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