Bathroom remodel help needed please

hi randy,

expanded metal lathe (galvanized) on top of tar paper is OK, or was OK as you say. I did it this year (2006) to build a rounded wall corner. Actually, it was expanded galvanized metal lathe and mortar, and behind it was a galvanized 20-gauge sheet, rounded to make the curve. So there was no tar paper.

The product you mention is a waterproofing membrane. It doesn't eliminate membranes, it is one. So it supports the idea that membranes are a good thing, since it is one. When using boards (CBUs), it is best to use tape if the board makers say that they only warranty installations with it.

You don't need CBU if you get Wedi, since it is a CBU made mostly of foam with a cement coating. Also, with Kerdi, you don't need CBU either, as any drywall will do to hold the Kerdi sheet. I don't know for sure if there are liquid membranes out there on the market that will give you their full warranty if you apply them onto drywall, so I guess you do need CBU if you are using a liquid membrane. More mess to cut all-cement CBU than Wedi or drywall.

david

Randyj said:

I do small tile jobs and only recently found this forum. I've been doing tile the "old way" for several years... the "older way" was to hang tar paper over wood (or sheetrock), expanded metal tacked up then smeared with mortar or concrete (not for sure) then stick the tiles on this.... I came along a little later in history... tar paper or plastic, durock or wonder board (same thing) then stick on the tiles with mortar... simple stuff. A couple of years ago I started studying how I wanted to build a house and was doing a repair job for a guy who has a very high dollar home under construction. He showed me how he is using Blue Seal waterproofing (http://www.bluesealwaterproofing.com/BlueSealFlooring/BlueSealFlooring_Overview.shtml )(he's a dealer for them) and I'm sold on it. It eliminates the use of membranes, is easy to apply, and seems to be cheaper but will require the job to take a little longer because it has to have time to dry before thowing muck on top of it. Before coming to this forum I'd never heard of Kerdi and lots of the newer products out there...and I'm in Homer or Lowe's several times a month...and not long ago I even sat thru a ceramic tile clinic and they didn't even mention waterproofing.... so, some of the old guys know how to make a buck and can do great work but they're not going to know all of the latest and greatest gizmos and stuff out there. Until recently I'd never use hardibacker for anything but I do like it. I've never used the fiberglass tape and not sure that it really helps. I built the shower in my old house 15 years ago with wonderboard and 4" tiles. Did not use the tape and it's still there and in great shape.
As for demolition.. I do alot of tub/shower replacements. I usually go around the tile with a sawzall then rip the sheetrock & towel down with a short prybar, disconnect the plumbing and pull the tub. Seldom more than 2 hours. By the end of the day I could have it ready to lay tile which I would do if I wanted to put in a couple of hours over time then grout the next morning...then clean up and seal the 3rd day... I always tell everyone that a properly done tile job takes at least 3 days regardless of how small it is.

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Randy, thanks for your help on taking out the tiles and tub. I really appreciate your input and I am glad you found this site. It's fun to learn from pros like yourself.

One tile guy told me we could move stuff back in once he had grouted the tiles. I told him that I had read you should wait at LEAST 24 hours, and he said no way. Wasn't I right about this?

My honest opinion.... yes, no, maybe.... Everything I've read about tiling says to let it set 8-24 hours... and I'm sure there are other opinions. Kinda like lots of things.. depends on who's book you read. I know people who sub for Sears who do a whole job in one day and tell the customer to use it when they're ready... Sounds foolish to me. For a REAL tile job I wouldn't do anything for at least 8 hours...then I'd get on my hands and knees and shine it up really good and seal it before I put my shoes on to walk on it. If one doesn't have the patience and time to do a perfect job they should install fiberglass showers and vinyl floor cover. Correcting screw ups in tile is not easy and frequently looks worse than the original problem.... but my experience is that tiling is actually very easy... time consuming... and even with less than $100 in cheap tools you can do a really super job. The more you know ahead of time the better. If you're uncomfortable at first then get a couple of scraps of boards and practice before you do the real thing. I can tell you for a fact that there are lots of people out there who are not artists and have not bothered to learn anything new since the first time they picked up a trowel....but can sell a job, take your money, and leave you hanging...there are others who are simply gifted and know what to look for. I recently did a re-tile on a semi-circular outdoor balcony... sloped from the center. The original installer just put mortar on top of the roofing membrane. It lasted 8 years...no telling how long the tiles had been loose. I had to clean and re-use the original tile...glued down hardibacker so as not to have nails or screws penetrating the membrane. Even using top of the line grout I'm crossing my fingers that this job will stay down. So far it has gone thru a few high winds and heavy down pours and a few days of hard freezes and it still looks great... let the hot summer sun hit it and we will have a verdict. I look for the heat to cause expansion and crack the grout allowing water to get up under it again and cause it to pucker cracking the grout. Definitely a situation for a floating floor system.

BTW... I'm not a pro... I'm just damn good!

You should avoid excessive traffic on any tiled surface for at least 24-hours. Same is true for grout. Most grout wants the mortar set first. Depending on that, it could be a few hours to a day or two. Same thing for sealing the grout - most want at least a couple of days after installing the grout.

There are rapid set mortars that can be set and then grouted in the same day...'normal' ones require time, especially if using a membrane. A modified thinset needs to both dry and to chemically cure, a purely cementaeous mortar only needs to cure. A big tile and a membrane means that moisture can escape only very slowly, especially if the grout lines are small.

he more you know ahead of time the better. If you're uncomfortable at first then get a couple of scraps of boards and practice before you do the real thing. I can tell you for a fact that there are lots of people out there who are not artists and have not bothered to learn anything new since the first time they picked up a trowel....but can sell a job, take your money, and leave you hanging...there are others who are simply gifted and know what to look for. I recently did a re-tile on a semi-circular outdoor balcony... sloped from the center. The original installer just put mortar on top of the roofing membrane. It lasted 8 years...no telling how long the tiles had been loose. I had to clean and re-use the original tile...glued down hardibacker so as not to have nails or screws penetrating the membrane.. Well, I in the middle bathroom remodeling too but I am having bad time finding website that are related to this topic