Bathroom remodel help needed please

Users who are viewing this thread

HoneySuckle

New Member
Messages
126
Reaction score
0
Points
0
We are replacing a tub, toilet and vanity. Ripping out all the old tiles and going down to the studs. I suspect some moisture problems because that bathroom has a musty scent no matter how much cleaning I do:rolleyes:

Question. Contractor said he has to put in drywall, mud, sand etc., then add Hardi backer board and a moisture barrier. Sounds nice and cosy, but the tile people said no drywall is necessary, just Hardi backer board and don't worry about moisture barrier.

Somebody is trying to mess with this lady and before I get annoyed, tell me who is right/wrong so I can fire the right person.
 

Geniescience

Homeowner
Messages
2,137
Reaction score
4
Points
0
Location
humid summers hot, humid winters cold
1. Drywall is not needed.
2. Moisture barrier is a good thing in a shower or tub-shower. Very good.

The Cementitious Backer Board ("CBU") is screwed to studs just the same way drywall is. Different screws though !! There is no CBU that needs to be screwed onto drywall or on top of drywall. Any week-old sales clerk at H*Despot can tell you that much.

Screwing a layer of drywall first before screwing a layer of CBU on top provides a little more mass and firmness to the walls (a good thing) but takes up space (not good). One could also screw down two layers of CBU. Nobody does. One can also use nails, but I don't, and I think the CBU manufacturers don't recommend it either.

Call the TechSupport 1-800 phone number of any of the CBU manufacturers, and they'll confirm everything I have written above. They do respond to these questions, which are normal everyday occurences for them. Maybe their web sites answer these Q's too.

One more piece of information : the tape that goes on top of the seams where two panels of CBU meet is NOT the same tape as what goes on top of two drywall panels. It must resist alkalinity. It must be a wide alkaline resistant tape. Unfortunately, it costs 4 times as much as the drywall tape. Both are made of fiberglass.

Let that be your trick question that you reserve till the end. Ask the tile store guys too.

David

p.s. another disadvantage to drywall, is that it is paper-faced, and ALL paper can harbor mold colonies, even paper treated to resist mold. Drywall ought not be near a wet wall, unless it is underneath a waterproof shower membrane (which is not your situation).
 

Jadnashua

Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx
Messages
32,770
Reaction score
1,190
Points
113
Location
New England
You SHOULD put a vapor barrier behind the cbu - it can either be roofing felt or plastic. There is an alternative, you can use something like Redgard (buy Custom Building Products dot com) on top of the cbu, if you wish. You may want to shim the studs so the cbu clears the tiling flange of the tub and doesn't flare out on the bottom. You should stop the cbu about 1/4" or so above the tub lip and fill that with caulk after tiling (or use Dilex or similar from www.schluter.com). To understand the process, do a little searching on www.johnbridge.com forum. It will help you understand how to do it right the first time.
 

chas22

New Member
Messages
25
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Oklahoma
Talking about vapor barrier, can someone tell me if a barrier is needed if the shower is in the middle of the house and not and outside wall ?
 

Jadnashua

Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx
Messages
32,770
Reaction score
1,190
Points
113
Location
New England
The cost to install a vapor barrier is next to nothing...put one in any shower you install. The idea is to protect and slow any moisture migration into the wall structure...where there's water, there will be some migration. Keeping it where you want it, inside of the shower or shower/tub surround is just plain good sense. I'm not sure of the code issues, but I'd do it regardless.
 

Geniescience

Homeowner
Messages
2,137
Reaction score
4
Points
0
Location
humid summers hot, humid winters cold
must stop water migration

Showers send water onto walls,
-> ergo onto grout.

---> Grout sucks water into the wall.
-------> Humidity rises, in the wall. (Even if house air is dry!)
-------------> Mold grows, and wood rots.

"Sealing" grout is not gonig to stop water from migrating. Sealing grout is surface protection.

Only a waterproof barrier designed to be a waterproof barrier is a waterproof barrier.


david
 

HoneySuckle

New Member
Messages
126
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Maybe instead of tiles that could cause problems down the line I should have them install cultured marble slabs?:confused: They don't look so hot but heck there is no grout to deal with.

About barriers - the guy told me he would use tar paper and he acted like it was the 'bees knees' to quote my child. I don't think he heard of anything better or maybe he uses the worst material and charges me high prices so he can make more money? Wish I knew to do this stuff so I could fire them all!

David, I am definitely going to shoot off that trick question. Bet he won't be able to answer.

Let me get this straight. I want to tell them to use hardi backer board directly on studs, and after the backer board is up you put a vapor barrier? Or do we put vapor barrier on the studes and then CBU? As for the tape, I could supply the SOB with it since you say it is expensive and these guys won't buy that. Tell me where to get the materials and I might pay for labor only.
 

HoneySuckle

New Member
Messages
126
Reaction score
0
Points
0
BTW, how difficult is it to remove existing tiles (demo the bathroom) and a tub? Did I ask this already elsewhere? Senility is setting in:eek:
 

hj

Master Plumber
Messages
33,602
Reaction score
1,040
Points
113
Location
Cave Creek, Arizona
Website
www.terrylove.com
tiles

One reason for putting the drywall and then the hardiboad would be to give the impression of a mud set tile job. Removing the tile can be about a 5 job, depending on which way you do it. Mess and dust will be a ten.
 

Geniescience

Homeowner
Messages
2,137
Reaction score
4
Points
0
Location
humid summers hot, humid winters cold
no, NO, yes, yes, yes. [1,2,3,4,5]

HoneySuckle said:
Maybe instead of tiles that could cause problems down the line I should have them install cultured marble slabs?:confused: They don't look so hot but heck there is no grout to deal with.
yuk. Said panels (slabs) are not waterproof either -- do you know how they make them, and what holds them together? If they could resist passing water through them they would put it in writing and promote it like it was space age stuff. Also, panel edges at the corners look ugly if you silicone them. And, it is real hard to place a big flat heavy thing totally right and plumb on a wall, even for the most skilled installers.

HoneySuckle said:
About barriers - the guy told me he would use tar paper and he acted like it was the 'bees knees' to quote my child. I don't think he heard of anything better or maybe he uses the worst material and charges me high prices so he can make more money?
good point. I have seen guys get subtle, emotional, practically lovey dovey, when talking about materials, when they are in the client seduction phase of the sale. This means to me that they know how to use emotional triggers to manipulate the whole process from start to finish. Even if you show that it isn't affecting you yourself, they will use emotions as a weapon later when they show they are no longer willing and able to put up with you, after they have received 2/3 of the total budget and given you confusing / conflicting ideas along the way so that you can be at war with yourself. Even if you are "not affected" by their emotional triggering, they will show that they themselves are affected byt heir own emotions, to justify leaving you in the lurch with an unfinished half-assed result. The weapon is that they show it affects themselves not that it affects you. Sincerity plus. They "invest" emotions in materials AND METHODS ("this is what i always do") so that later it works against you, like a lever (tool, weapon). On one side: reality; and on the other side: Sincerity, self-esteem, self-respect and should you dare express anything yourself, add to that a vague "fear" of an unhappy client on top of it all.

HoneySuckle said:
Wish I knew to do this stuff so I could fire them all!
i know twenty or thirty people experienced and willing to help you, on this site and others.

HoneySuckle said:
....directly on studs, and after the backer board is up you put a vapor barrier? Or do we put vapor barrier on the studes and then CBU?
Both ways are done. In your case it is not mission critical !! Your first post, at the top of this thread, said TUB only, not shower, not tub shower. So you don't need a vapour barrier high on the scale of "needs". My saying this is not to be construed as contradicting anything (that I have said or anyone else has said either).


HoneySuckle said:
As for the tape, I could supply the SOB with it since you say it is expensive and these guys won't buy that. Tell me where to get the materials and I might pay for labor only.
in a big box store, ask the clerk who works in the cement area, not the drywall area.


-david
 
Last edited:

Geniescience

Homeowner
Messages
2,137
Reaction score
4
Points
0
Location
humid summers hot, humid winters cold
4 out of 10

hj gave good warning. Mess and dust could be the biggest irritant.

also, hj mentioned the extra feeling of weight, heft, substance, is a reason to put drywall first before CBU. Good point. It can trick the mind into thinking the tiles are mud set.

how hard is removing tile? i think Nobody knows yet how handy you are in general, so nobody can tell you how hard it'll be for you! I personally think it is easy to remove tile and the board underneath it, and even to do this while minimizing dust. As long as you are slow and careful, you could bag and box a huge amount of material without generating much dust. There will be a smell, though.

david
 

myrightnut

Civil Engineer
Messages
9
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Ontario, Canada
If I could add my two cents...

Concrete board is great for behind the tiles... concrete will not harbour moisture like the drywall will and mold will not grow.

If you are interested in a "Water proof" system I would suggest looking at a Kirdy system... this is the cats ass when it comes to waterproof and ulitmately removing any concerns with mould. it is a little expensive but well worth the money in my eyes. For an interior application you would not require a vapour barrier and with this membrane you would stop the moisture from passing into the concrete board.

Check out their site here
http://www.schluter.com/english/products/2002/overview/productoverview.html
 

HoneySuckle

New Member
Messages
126
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Thanks for all your tips. Though I've never removed tiles before, I am ready, willing and sort of able to do this. My husband and son can help too. One person told me that we could cut the wall and remove the tiles this way, what do you think? As for dust and mess, we're not doing too badly removing popcorn from ceilings. I clean up right away and try not to trail that yucky stuff all over the house. We locked off areas and put up plastic curtains in doorways to minimize dust again.

Will read some more about Kerdi. I would rather put out more money now than later on dealing with mold and mildew.

And I do apologize for even suggesting cultured marble, especially since I HATE the stuff:D It was a weak moment so do forgive me.

David I wasn't specific about the showering area. We are putting in a tub but it will be used mainly for showers. For this reason I am concerned about grout and eventual leakage (like what is going on with my old bathroom at the moment).

Do you seal grout? What is the best or most effective sealant?
 

Cass

Plumber
Messages
5,947
Reaction score
7
Points
0
Location
Ohio
Wear eye protection and heavy leather work gloves as well as a dust mask. The better the mask the better it is for your lungs.
 

Bob NH

In the Trades
Messages
3,310
Reaction score
9
Points
0
Location
New Hampshire
HoneySuckle said:
Let me get this straight. I want to tell them to use hardi backer board directly on studs, and after the backer board is up you put a vapor barrier? Or do we put vapor barrier on the studes and then CBU? As for the tape, I could supply the SOB with it since you say it is expensive and these guys won't buy that. Tell me where to get the materials and I might pay for labor only.
I would put the vapor barrier on the studs under the backer board. The backer board is designed to hold the tile. The vapor barrier may not be.

Can you imagine trying to make Thinset adhesive stick to tar paper or polyethylene?

Vapor brarrier UNDER the backer board protects studs and the opposite wall. The backer board doesn't need vapor protection.
 

Geniescience

Homeowner
Messages
2,137
Reaction score
4
Points
0
Location
humid summers hot, humid winters cold
yes, plastic under CBU. Or tile-ready membrane on top of CBU

Bob is right; plastic goes underneath.

Then the CBU has to be installed so that it allows its moisutre/water to drip into the tub; so it has to be furred out enough to ensure it falls over the tub tiling flange, and the plastic too.

Three types of membranes can go on top, too. This means the CBU itself doesn't get wet, and the furring step is unnecessary. These three methods all mean that you thinset tile directly onto the membrane.

One is the wet gooey stuff (like Redgard from Custom, HPG from Mapei, and others). It hardens into a tacky rubbery surface which hold thinset.

The second is a floppy rolled orange sheet that sticks with thinset. The manufacturer of this membrane has been a big sponsor of the people at johnbridge.com since 2004, so there is a lot of normal human and understandable self-censorship in favor of it.

The third is a rigid board that is waterproof and uses Sikaflex to seal edges. It's a straight, flat, rigid and strong CBU replacement. Its name is Wedi.

I have used both these last two methods. I have let people see both systems while I was building. Everyone is impressed with Wedi. No-one doubts its ability to be a CBU replacement, which eliminates a lot of steps involved in the other methods described above. It is so straight and rigid that you can use it like a flatedge / straightedge / level to tell you which stud to fur out to get a perfectly flat support for your perfectly flat board. This gives you a perfectly flat wall, a perfect substrate for your tiles!

david
 

HoneySuckle

New Member
Messages
126
Reaction score
0
Points
0
David, I just interviewed a drywall guy who does bathrooms as well and he insists that vapor barrier is not necessary and furthermore he never heard of the Kerdi system! He won't be hired that's for sure. He said that he's never worked with Hardibacker but uses durock. Is durock different?

How does one figure out the amount of Kerdi needed for a bathtub surround? I'm going to the ceiling which is 8'.
 

HoneySuckle

New Member
Messages
126
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Schulter is going to send me a DVD and literature on their system. I called a local place that is a distributor and they also mentioned Hydro Guard one...are you familiar with this product David?
 

Geniescience

Homeowner
Messages
2,137
Reaction score
4
Points
0
Location
humid summers hot, humid winters cold
Hydro Guard One is in the right category.

The product you mentioned above is one of the many competitive products to Redgard and HPG that I mentioned above. They are "liquid applied waterproofing membranes"; I called them "wet gooey". Yes, they work. Is this the right one for you? Is this the right one for a shower ? I don't know. But, to be cautious, you might want to give some thought to the fact that a shower wall is getting water sprayed on it about 400 times a year. A lot of water. A kitchen floor has other issues to contend with, and this product seems to be recommended for slabs under kitchen floors. After you call the manufacturer you might have more to go on. (I won't do that for you.:D )

People who like liquid membranes always say that they form fit to all shapes. That is not a big concern on a wall, but it is on a slab floor with cracks, little openings, and future cracks too.

Be sure you say "shower" not bathtub, otherwise there is no strong need for a vapor barrier and no need at all for a waterproofing membrane. :)

Honey have you read https://terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9901 all of it? Similar concerns.

david
 

Randyj

Master Plumber
Messages
1,060
Reaction score
2
Points
36
Location
Alabama
I do small tile jobs and only recently found this forum. I've been doing tile the "old way" for several years... the "older way" was to hang tar paper over wood (or sheetrock), expanded metal tacked up then smeared with mortar or concrete (not for sure) then stick the tiles on this.... I came along a little later in history... tar paper or plastic, durock or wonder board (same thing) then stick on the tiles with mortar... simple stuff. A couple of years ago I started studying how I wanted to build a house and was doing a repair job for a guy who has a very high dollar home under construction. He showed me how he is using Blue Seal waterproofing (http://www.bluesealwaterproofing.com/BlueSealFlooring/BlueSealFlooring_Overview.shtml )(he's a dealer for them) and I'm sold on it. It eliminates the use of membranes, is easy to apply, and seems to be cheaper but will require the job to take a little longer because it has to have time to dry before thowing muck on top of it. Before coming to this forum I'd never heard of Kerdi and lots of the newer products out there...and I'm in Homer or Lowe's several times a month...and not long ago I even sat thru a ceramic tile clinic and they didn't even mention waterproofing.... so, some of the old guys know how to make a buck and can do great work but they're not going to know all of the latest and greatest gizmos and stuff out there. Until recently I'd never use hardibacker for anything but I do like it. I've never used the fiberglass tape and not sure that it really helps. I built the shower in my old house 15 years ago with wonderboard and 4" tiles. Did not use the tape and it's still there and in great shape.
As for demolition.. I do alot of tub/shower replacements. I usually go around the tile with a sawzall then rip the sheetrock & towel down with a short prybar, disconnect the plumbing and pull the tub. Seldom more than 2 hours. By the end of the day I could have it ready to lay tile which I would do if I wanted to put in a couple of hours over time then grout the next morning...then clean up and seal the 3rd day... I always tell everyone that a properly done tile job takes at least 3 days regardless of how small it is.
 
Top
Hey, wait a minute.

This is awkward, but...

It looks like you're using an ad blocker. We get it, but (1) terrylove.com can't live without ads, and (2) ad blockers can cause issues with videos and comments. If you'd like to support the site, please allow ads.

If any particular ad is your REASON for blocking ads, please let us know. We might be able to do something about it. Thanks.
I've Disabled AdBlock    No Thanks