Bladder tank dead?

Hi
The pressure switch on my well burned out over the weekend, sticking closed, and ran the water pressure up to around 135 psi, in turn blowing the fill valves on both toilets, and the ceramic seals in my kitchen faucet. From what I can tell, the pump ran like this all night before it was discovered, as I flushed the toilet, went to bed, discovering the problem early next morning, and my septic system was sluggish, so Im sure that it ran out quite a bit of water. The pressure switch was replaced, and now Im noticing that when using water, the water pulses, and I can see the lights flicker up and down about every 2 seconds as if the pump is starting and stopping. Everything seemed fine for the first couple of days before I noticed this. The driller thinks that the pressure blew the bladder in the tank. Does this sound right? More info on the system if it helps....The pump is a Goulds 10EJ10422 series, one horespower 2 wire, and the pressure tank is a Hydro-pro model V-200-B burried tank, which is burried in the ground right beside the well. I cannot read the paperwork clearly enough to determine whether it says that the tank is an 82 gallon, or a 62 gallon, but it does show a 20.1 gallon drawdown. The entire system was installed in Jan of 1993, and everything is original except for the pressure switch which has been replaced once before. The well serves a total of 3 houses. Thanks in advance.

Yea, I would say the tank is shot. You can simply ignore the buried tank and place one in the crawl space under your house although you may have to later dig up the burried tank and by pass it. Eventually the shell on the burried tank will rot away and leave you with a leak. Move the pressure switch from the top of the well and place it at the new tank. Also since it is a shared well now may be the time to talk to some one here about a csv system. By the way where is that prv? My opinion is that every well should have one.

My opinion is, the tank is what caused the switch points to stick closed from cycling before you had the initial problem.

I'm with VAPlumber, put on a PRV and save yourself a headache in the future.

I haven't heard of your bladder tank brand, but 13 years is a long time for a bladder tank to last. And I have never seen a buried tank I was fond of.

bob...

You definitely need a relief valve. A pump that can deliver more than the rated working pressure of the tank should never be installed without a relief valve.

I assume that since you are serving 3 houses with a 10 GPM rated pump, that nobody is allowed to run a lawn sprinkler off the system.

Your original tank was large enough to serve the pump, but with 3 houses and the likelihood of rather large peak demands (everyone up and using showers and toilets in the morning, for example), you might want an even larger one. Have there been any problems with delivering enough water at peak times?

Because your well is serving three houses, you need a tank that can deliver more than the pump flow to take care of those peaks. That means the tank is larger than would be required to limit the pump cycling. The problem with a CSV and small tank in this case is that you can't deliver more than the pump flow for any significant time.

When peak demand GPM exceeds pump capacity GPM, the only solution is pressurized storage. A CSV doesn't help solve that problem.

If there is any problem with the water pressure or flow delivered to the 3 houses, then I would go with a larger tank, such as a 119 gallon bladder tank. That is the largest you can get without going to an ASME Code rated tank.

Because the peak demand from 3 houses is probably more than the 10 GPM rated pump can supply, I would set the air precharge at the lowest pressure that you want to deliver to the houses, but set the pressure switch start point about 15 psi higher than that. The pump will then come on while there is still water in the tank to help the pump get over the peak demand.

I would set the shutoff pressure safely below the relief valve pressure. If the pressure swings are too great, then you could put a pressure reducing valve and an expansion tank on the discharge side of your supply tank.

That V200 is a Goulds tank. I'd get a new tank above ground, and I'm with Speed and VAplumber, get a PRV installed!!
Ron

Prv

The usage on this forum has been to use PRV when referring to a Pressure Reducing Valve. That is not what is needed in this case. What is required is a Relief Valve that dumps water to protect the tank when a control fails.

It is possible that earlier posters are using PRV to mean Pressure Relief Valve, but it could be ambiguous because of general usage of PRV on this forum to mean Pressure Reducing Valve.

T&P Valve

Why didn't the T&P valve on the water heater blow and protect the house?

Rancher

I always use PRV for pressure relief valve. CSV is what I use for reducing valve.

I always wondered why the water heater pressure relief valves don't blow too. I have had my pressure cranked up over 100 lbs. and never lost a drop through the valves. I know heat is what is supposed to make the expansion to increase the pressure, but the spring isn't going to open the valve until the pressure over comes its setting. So what's up with that???

bob...

speedbump said:

I always use PRV for pressure relief valve. CSV is what I use for reducing valve.

I always wondered why the water heater pressure relief valves don't blow too. I have had my pressure cranked up over 100 lbs. and never lost a drop through the valves. I know heat is what is supposed to make the expansion to increase the pressure, but the spring isn't going to open the valve until the pressure over comes its setting. So what's up with that???

bob...

Click to expand...

Those valves have both a temperature and pressure element.

The water heater relief valves are usually set at 150 PSI to protect the water heater. They don't help the hydropneumatic tank that is rated for 75 to 100 PSI.

The few I have replaced were set for 75 psi. So why wouldn't they blow off somewhere before 100 lbs.?

bob...

Thanks to everyone for the help. The hydropro tank is a Goulds tank. So far, we have never had any problems with providing enough water, and the only time we really notice anything bad is through the summer when we are all running sprinklers on the gardens at the same time. Speedbump and Bob NH, the valve on my water heater is rated at 150 psi, but you both did give me an idea. Maybe I should replace it with a 75 psi if I can find one that is temp rated as well. The burried tank setup was installed because originally there was a trailer, and nowhere else to place the tank. I would like to replace this setup with a tank above ground in my crawl space, but the problem there is going to be physical size limit. The crawl space is about 4 feet high, but the door to get under there is a 2 and a half foot square. Would a normal size tank fit through that hole?

Don't mess with the water heater relief valve. That is a special Temperature/Pressure relief valve designed only for water heaters and boilers. It won't protect your pump tank because there is probably a shutoff valve ahead of the water heater, and the only ones that I have seen are set at 150 PSI and are not adjustable.

You need a real Pressure Relief Valve on your system that has a setting about 75 PSI, that is plumbed to a safe place to dump water.

There should be no valve between the pump and the tank or between the tank and the relief valve. The relief valve is usually installed in a tee in the line from the pump to tank.

For small submersible pump systems they are quite small (1/2 or 3/4 male pipe thread) and inexpensive (usually less than $10). They are usually factory set at 75 psi and are not adjustable.

Anything larger and anything adjustable is more expensive and not required for a 10 to 15 GPM pump.

Most tanks will go through a 30" square hole. Check before you buy.

The Flexcon tanks are all under 24 inches in diameter except the two largest. And you don't need one that big. The 220 gallon equivalent is only 21" in diameter.

bob...

speedbump said:

The Flexcon tanks are all under 24 inches in diameter except the two largest. And you don't need one that big. The 220 gallon equivalent is only 21" in diameter.

bob...

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Speedbump, do the flexcon tanks compare in quality fairly close to the hydropro tanks? Also, another thing that comes to mind is the set up and plumbing of the underground water lines. As of now, Ive got the well, which is about 150 feet from the house. From the well, the line goes into the burried tank which is right beside the well. From there, the line goes into a manifold that feeds the valves and the lines to all three houses, and from that manifold, the line comes off and runs into a yard hydrant, and from that into my house. If I place the new tank in my house, will this cause any problems since the other two houses will be feeding off of the line between the well and the new tank? I do understand that I will have to move the pressure switch from its location in the well, and place it at the new tank, and I also understand that I will have to remove the shutoff valve that would then be between the well and the new tank.

tank

If you move the tank, there has to be a separate pipe from the well to the tank, and then one from the tank back to the manifold. You do not want the other houses to be connected to the pipe between the pump and tank for a lot of reasons.

HJ is right, this could be a tricky install. The pipe feeding the tank should be bigger to feed the tank, then branch off with smaller pipes to each home. If you move the tank straight to your home with the same pipe assuming it is 1", you will now be feeding your home directly from the tank but back out the 1" line to the other two houses and in through the same line when the pump is running. Someone is going to get short changed.

You need BobNh to help you with this one.

The Flexcon in my opinion is the best tank on the market and if Goulds is still selling the State brand tanks, they in my opinion are middle of the road quality wise.

bob...

abikerboy said:

Also, another thing that comes to mind is the set up and plumbing of the underground water lines. As of now, Ive got the well, which is about 150 feet from the house. From the well, the line goes into the burried tank which is right beside the well. From there, the line goes into a manifold that feeds the valves and the lines to all three houses, and from that manifold, the line comes off and runs into a yard hydrant, and from that into my house. If I place the new tank in my house, will this cause any problems since the other two houses will be feeding off of the line between the well and the new tank? I do understand that I will have to move the pressure switch from its location in the well, and place it at the new tank, and I also understand that I will have to remove the shutoff valve that would then be between the well and the new tank.

Click to expand...

If the line from the well to the new tank is large enough to supply the demand to all of the houses, then that line can serve both to fill the tank and your house, and the other houses from backflow. A 1" line will be marginally acceptable for two houses; a 1 1/4 would be more appropriate if you are putting in a new line. Based on the pump model I assume it is a nominal 10 GPM pump which probably operates at around 12 GPM.

The effect on the houses off the manifold will be that when the pump is running, the manifold pressure will be higher than the tank pressure by the amount of pressure loss from manifold to tank; and when the pump is off the manifold pressure will be lower than the tank pressure by the amount of pressure loss from tank to manifold. Therefore, they will see pressure swings when the pump starts and stops. This will be most noticable with a 1" line from manifold to tank. If that is unsatisfactory, you can run a separate pipe to the tank or back to the manifold. The larger pipe will solve that problem by making the pressure difference quite small.

When you plumb this up, you should make sure that you can isolate each house separately for service (including your house) so that the others will continue to get service from the pump and tank.

If you have a valve in the line from pump to tank you can remove the handle of the valve so someone won't close it, if removing it is too difficult. There must be no check valve between manifold and tank.

Thanks everyone for the help. I think Im going on and let the pump man do the work on this. He has also advised me to just replace the burried tank to keep it all straight forward and simple. The well man says that by installing the new tank under the house it would be a gamble that I could have switch chatter or even hammer when the pump starts and the water leaving the tank to another house suddenly has to reverse direction through all of that underground pipe. Otherwise, all underground pipe is 1", except the pipe between the well and tank, and the tank to manifold, which is 1 1/4", so changing out burried pipe and or installing an additional line would really cost more than just replacing the tank that is there. Also will be installing a relief valve while doing this repair, and also to my knowledge, there are no check valves anywhere in the system other than the one in the pump itself.

Sounds like the right move. If you stay with a burial tank, then stay with the hydro pro. If you can afford the extra money then build a in ground box for the tank. I agree that cycling causes the switch to stick but also with the switch being old and in the top of the well corrosion could also cause failure. For the cost Id replace the switch every 5 or 6 years anyway. If you blew all of these valves then you probably had enough water pass through the pump to prevent dead head damage.

Just curious; any new developments here?