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Thread: Toto toilets and MaP results

  1. #1
    DIY Junior Member Nomdeplumb's Avatar
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    Default Toto toilets and MaP results

    Apologies if this question has been answered in other threads-- we did try to search to see what we could find out, and must say there is a wealth of info available on Toto toilets but we really do want to understand flush volume capability. Nothing focuses things better than grams per flush!

    However, in looking at the MaP report it seems that Toto doesn't have as good results as Kohler (which is another brand we are considering) and the difference is quite large ( 550 ish to 600-ish for Toto, versus 1000 for Kohler).

    We want a classic/traditional look and are toggling between Kohler Memoirs and Toto Promenade or Clayton. Some of our reading suggests that Kohler toilets are prone to plugging, which seems a bit counterintuitive given the good "suckage" MaP number.

    Anyway, any advice would be appreciated. In the meantime will continue to wander through this website (excellent by the way) and watch toilet videos on Youtube. Who knew that could be so entertaining!!

    thank you

    Drake 800 grams by Veritech Video
    Last edited by Terry; 11-22-2009 at 06:31 PM.

  2. #2
    Forum Admin, Expert Plumber Terry's Avatar
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    Not true.

    The MaP test uses 3/4" x 4" paste wrapped in plastic.
    It does not test for bowl rinse,
    Quality
    Parts availability
    Defects per 100 units.
    Warped bases and non fitting parts.
    Or what happens if you don't flush plastic wrapped paste.

    In the real world, the Kohler will plug more then the TOTO.
    I don't really care what the MaP lab says, I put these things in my home and try them. We have a lot of people using them, not just a lab rat in a white coat that is afraid of getting his white pants dirty.
    We get dirty, and we get answers!

    But if you like numbers, would you be interested in a 1968 Chevy Nova with a big V-8 Engine?
    It's a 350 cubic inch. Wow! That's really big.

    Drum brakes on four wheels, and a vinyl bench seat.
    The AM radio gets five stations.

    Nothing focuses things better than grams per flush!
    Proven to be a false statement.

    The Kohler continues to have the tight bends that will "trap" stuff going down.

    The trapway on the Kohler Class Six Cimarron lays flat, hopefully waste makes it through the tight bend for the flange.
    This is where I find the most plugs with the bowl.
    Not a good design.


    The TOTO Drake II trapway points the waste down the drain.
    To see what we are talking about in waste, this is the old method of testing before they started wrapping the paste.
    Drake 800 grams by Veritech Video
    Last edited by Terry; 05-02-2010 at 04:03 PM.

  3. #3
    Customer Service Manager Plumbing Wholesale Peanut9199's Avatar
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    Too many people focus on the Map test as the way to tell if a toilet is the best.
    I blame Toto for this, they did such a good job on the Drake and the point it flushes 1000 grams of material without being a "Pressure Assist" that now everyone uses 1000 as a bench mark too beat.

    If you think about what 1000 grams of waste is you will realize you don't need even 250 to flush.

    15 years ago at 5 gallons of water the normal toilet would flush at the most 100 grams.

    You should focus more on what Tery said than grams.

    Here is a video of Terry posted showing a flush of 800grams and ask yourself would you ever produce this much waste yourself.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmuzFve6O4k

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    Plumbing Designer FloridaOrange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nomdeplumb View Post
    Toto doesn't have as good results as Kohler (which is another brand we are considering) and the difference is quite large ( 550 ish to 600-ish for Toto, versus 1000 for Kohler).
    My brother has one of those Kohlers. He's very happy with his flush....because he doesn't see the (non-Toto) toilet I have that flushes as well and has a much better bowl rinse. His kohler has almost no bowl wash. I wonder if his wife is happy cleaning the toilet more often (1 teen and 1 ******* also live in the house).
    Matt
    Semi-professional plumbing designer
    Enjoying life in SW Florida

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    DIY Senior Member Runs with bison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peanut9199 View Post
    Here is a video of Terry posted showing a flush of 800grams and ask yourself would you ever produce this much waste yourself.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmuzFve6O4k
    Well...possibly, but mine are never that uniform and tidy. I'm working on quality control though...

  6. #6
    Master Plumber Dunbar Plumbing's Avatar
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    I guarantee I let go of 1800 grams at the ford dealership today while waiting for my oil change to get done.


    I was lightheaded, despondent, couldn't make out even the smallest of sentences asking about food for nourishment after the healthy mass left me.


    But on a cleaner yet on topic note,


    I used to follow that MaP score as well but over the years I normally look for what's in my hands on a week to week basis as far as what the trendsetters are these days.

    Drake 800 grams by Veritech Video
    Last edited by Terry; 11-22-2009 at 06:31 PM.
    Read what the end of this sentence means.

  7. #7
    DIY Senior Member Runs with bison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunbar Plumbing View Post
    I guarantee I let go of 1800 grams at the ford dealership today while waiting for my oil change to get done.
    I don't trust dealerships with anything that I can easily do myself, especially oil changes. That's a job they put the newest/least trained help on. Last time I had a Ford truck the previous owner had relied on the dealership for service--bunch of impact wrench monkeys. As a result the oil drain plug was stripped and slowly dripping. All the lugnuts were overtorqued (took somewhere over 250 lb ft to remove one of them and my old tire cross failed at the neck first, I had to go buy another one to finish the job.) The cheap plated cladding on the Ford lugs all distorted so I had to replace about half of them so that I would be able to get a wrench on them again.

  8. #8
    Forum Admin, Expert Plumber Terry's Avatar
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    i always hear about poor bowl wash on the kohler
    I "see" the poor bowl wash on Kohler.

  9. #9
    DIY Member Alan Muller's Avatar
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    The MAP test basically measures only one thing. If people look at only that, and the makers design to that test, other things like bowl wash, splashing, noise, are going to get neglected.

    No great mystery, really: If you put most of the water into a siphon jet you can suck down the contents but the bowl won't get washed vey well. If you put most or all of the water into the rim the bowl can get washed but the level will rise before the siphon fills.... If you use a plain washdown design (no siphonic action) you get a different set of tradeoffs.

    It's a matter of balance among different qualities--like most engineering problems. Maybe the MAP test has made it's point about flushing ability and now it's time for a more balanced test that reports several performance parameters?

  10. #10
    DIY Member BlueHouse's Avatar
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    Yes it's true that Toto has weaker Map results than Kohler but for the better bowl wash it is a good deal.

  11. #11
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueHouse View Post
    Yes it's true that Toto has weaker Map results than Kohler but for the better bowl wash it is a good deal.
    All this proves is that Kohler figured out a way to make theirs look good on plastic wrapped paste...this does not necessarily indicate how well it works with the real thing. Also, even the author of the MAP test says anything over 500g on the latest version of the test is more than adequate.
    Jim DeBruycker
    Important note - I'm not a pro
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer; Schluter 2.5-day Workshop Completed 2013, 2014

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