Cycle Stop

Could i benefit from a cycle stop valve even though i have only a 1/2 hp submersible? I just installed it a couple months ago (wished I would have learned about csv's before or i would have installed a 1 hp pump). Still, we do plan on irrigating, etc some garden stuff where water could run for an hour at a time in many cases.

If you stay with the 1/2hp the Cycle Stop Valve can still help save your motor. A 1/2hp pump can pump up and shut off many times during a shower, washing machine refills etc. The Valve will prevent the cycling there. You can still have a sprinkler system with a 1/2hp pump. They put out a good amount of water and the system can be designed to the pump.

If you went with a 1hp pump, you would really need the Valve since it would be way bigger and would supply too much water for household needs. This would cause the pump to cycle even more.

bob...

Bob,

What kind of cycle valve would be recommended?

I have an 80 gallon tank (bladder type) - 80 real gallons
I am running about 37/56 pressure settings
I think my drawdown is about 20 to 23 gallons.

would 50 psi cycle stop work?
I think brass? because it would be in utility room (no leaking)

can the cycle stop valve pressure setting be adjusted at all?

thanks,
scott

Csv150

Use a CSV1-50 and a CSC1. Install just below the pitless adapter or well seal and you won't have to worry about the small leak. This is a 50 PSI valve and is not adjustable. It will keep the pressure at 50 PSI steady instead of the pressure continually changing from 37 to 56 while you are taking a shower or anything else. With the 1/2 HP pump you probably can't afford the friction loss of the adjustable brass valve. You would only get about 8 GPM from your 10 GPM pump. But if you never use more than 8 GPM the adjustable brass CSV1Z would be fine. If at any time you want to change to a 1 HP 20 GPM pump, either of these valves will still work fine. You will not be increasing your electric bill as long as while using the 1/2 HP pump, you set your irrigation to 8-10 GPM, and with a 1 HP you use 16-20 GPM. The difference in the electric bill for just the home use is minimal or non existent. What it will do for the home use is keep the pressure a constant 50 PSI instead of always bouncing between 37 and 56 PSI. The larger the pump the more steady your pressure in the house no matter what you are using. The smaller the tank (but not less than 20 gallon actual size) the sooner or quicker the system will be at 50 PSI steady. The best of both worlds would be to use the CSV150 with your 80 gallon tank, and reduce the difference between on and off to 45/55. This will cut your draw down in half which is still OK, but will deliver more of a constant pressure for intermittent uses for times when the pump is not already running. Even with the 1/2 HP pump and the large tank, you will still experience the constant 50 PSI. You will just be almost finished with a shower before the tank is drained, refilled, and the valve is holding at a constant 50 PSI. Once you have experienced this constant pressure, you will like it so much that you will catch yourself waiting for it. Then you will see what I mean about using a smaller tank, bigger pump, or narrowing the band between on and off, which makes the constant pressure happen sooner.

constant pressure

If you have never had "constant pressure", then you don't know what you are missing. I don't know of anyone who has had a "constant pressure" system, that would ever again be happy with the 40 to 60 varying pressure. With the old 40/60 system cycling on and odd repeatedly, the house pressure is always better when the pump is on and the pressure is increasing. The house pressure is always worse when the pump is off and the pressure is decreasing. The old 40/60 system gives an average of 50 PSI, but as the pressure drops to 40, you have 2/3rds or just a little over half the pressure you have before the pump shuts off at 60 PSI. When the pressure is at 60, you have almost twice the pressure you had before the pump started at 40 PSI. A Cycle Stop Valve will let the tank drain one time from 60 down to 40, and then holds a "constant" 50 PSI as long as the shower is on or any water is being used. A "constant" 50 PSI gives the house much better pressure than an average 50 PSI. The washing machine fills faster, the sprinklers have more force and hit exactly in the same circle every time, and the shower seems so much stronger that people tell me they don't even need soap in the shower any more, the "constant" 50 PSI just blast the dirt off of them. The CSV is the only thing I have ever installed as a pump man that the customer can easily see the difference. With the old 40/60 system it was "thanks for getting my water back to working, I guess we will see you again in a few years". With the CSV it was "I don't know what you did, but I have never had this kind of pressure in my house ever before".

With the old system, the wider you make the bandwidth (45/75), the less the pump cycled, but the more variation of pressure in the house. With a pressure regulator set at 55 PSI after the tank, the pump will still be cycling on and off and you always need more than 55 PSI from the tank (55/75) for this valve to keep 55 PSI on the house side. I don't know why anyone would want city water supply cost and taste, when they could so easily have constant city like water pressure from their own water well with much better taste and much lower cost per gallon.

40/60 or 45/75 is very detectable to anyone who has experienced "constant pressure".

Thanks for all the info.

A couple more questions:
if i move to a 60 psi setting on a csv (meaning i would actually change the pressure switch settings to something like (52/62), will my 1/2 hp 10GS05 (10gpm) pump be able to keep up?
What I mean to ask is.... would it be better to stay at a 50 psi csv given i have a 1/2 hp 10gpm pump for the house.

If so, I should adjust settings to 45/55?

And... I DO need to install this csv INSIDE because i am drawing from a cistern and really do not want to drain it unless it would somehow be better to keep it out there in the cistern to hook up the csv.

How much is the 50 psi csv (csv150) can this be installed in utility room? (no leaking).

Tickridgescott, with a 10GS05 pumping from a cistern, you can use the CSV160 with pressure switch setting of 45/65. You will like the 60 PSI constant better than the 50 PSI constant. I would install the valve with a CSC1 in the cistern, above the water level, before the line exits the cistern. You could install it in the utility room, but it might start dripping a gallon per week depending on your water quality. Please let us know what you think of the difference in pressure after you have installed the valve.
I have known many people who make up for bad sprinkler designs by letting the cycling of the pump even up the spread. This is what keeps many pump installers in business, even though it may make them hateful, as everyone who calls them is mad and out of water because of a pump that burned up sooner they think it should have. Most city water supplies are pristine until they add chlorine, which I think is important in most cases, but I still don't like the taste. I even carry several bottles of well water with me when I travel, but I guess I will have to put it in checked luggage from now on. I also believe our natural resources need to be conserved, but I think we can do this without having to take spit baths. Copper, steel, plastic and other things it takes to manufacture pumps and equipment also comes from natural resources. The longer your pump system last the more natural resources you are saving. The less times a pump cycles on and off the longer the pump system will last. In larger systems "constant pressure" eliminates line breaks compared to water hammer that happens from pumps starting and stopping. As much as 14% of our water supplies are currently being wasted to leaks in the system. "Constant pressure" stops water hammer which causes the line breaks and leaks and actually helps conserve water. There are several cities and other type systems that are installing CSV's to eliminate line breaks. They are currently documenting tremendous water savings as well as saving other natural resources by not having to replace broken pipes and fittings. With a CSV in the home you do need to remember to conserve water, because while enjoying the 60 PSI constant pressure you will catch yourself taking much too long of a shower. No fuzzy math here, and the facts always sound like a sales pitch to anyone who has never seen a CSV work.

NYC at it again...

A long time ago in a university far, far away, I took an economics course. One of the classic case studies documented NYC's decision over whether they should install water meters or build a new reservoir. Any sane, thinking person who understands economics and politics would understand that

a) Meters make more sense, and
b) They built the reservoir.

They're still draining the Catskills into New York Harbor.

Does anyone know the consequences of going from 50 psi to 60 psi on plumbing: pipes, valves, faucets, etc. Maybe I am just being over anxious here, but it seems that the more pressure that is always on the system, the faster things (like bladder tanks, or other things in the system: pipe joints, etc) could wear/ burst/ etc.

on another note: I am very pragmatic and do not care so much about the alternating pressures of a typical country water system. However, I do care about pump cycling and this is why the csv valve is really looking good to me.

tickridgescott said:

Does anyone know the consequences of going from 50 psi to 60 psi on plumbing: pipes, valves, faucets, etc. Maybe I am just being over anxious here, but it seems that the more pressure that is always on the system, the faster things (like bladder tanks, or other things in the system: pipe joints, etc) could wear/ burst/ etc.

Click to expand...

Going from 50 to 60 should have no affect on anything so long as you adjust your bladder tank air pressure to reflect that change.

One tank that did overextend and go bad a lot was the WX-203. Tall and skinny with the bladder anchored too near the bottom. Some had a dome to prevent the bag from going any higher than it should, and some didn't and they failed a lot when the air got let down.

The air didn't leak either, it was either set up wrong in the first place, or the neighbor down the street (you know him, he knows everything about everything) let's the air out. He will say: "I know why you don't have good pressure, your tank is air logged. Here watch this." You know the rest.

Then the homeowner who had the neighbor, went out bought a smaller bladder tank and a CSV and lived happily ever after.

The End.

bob...

I have order the csv160 from speedbump. The evidence for saving the equipment, the water system, etc from a small investment of a csv is overwhelming. Thanks for all the input from everyone.

Tickridgescott, please let us know what you think of your CSV. Bob, I agree about the tall and skinny tanks stretching the bladder too far. But I have a WX-203 that I installed in 1982 and have never had a problem or even added air. I did have lots of problems with the WX-252 that I do not have with the short and fat WX-302.

I agree with the 252's they were a real problem.

We used to have to cut big holes in the tanks so the scrap yard could see the junk men weren't filling them with water to add weight. That's how I knew they put a dome in some and not in others. I don't know why they didn't just do it with all of them and the 252's.

bob...

Almost every person i know that has a well system uses 20/40 or 30/50 pressure settings. I just ordered a 60 psi csv. That means I am going to be setting my differential to something like 45 to 50 / 65 or so off. Geez, why would not EVERYONE use higher pressure. I can't figure that out. This is why i am a little worried about it - thinking that I am taking more risks with the higher pressure. Or does it use more electricity?

Just don't see the point is all these people at 20/ 40 ???

I am building new and have new plumbing, etc so any other issues? Maybe it is more damaging to a bladder tank, etc....

I am just trying to understand- I feel a little like an overpriveledged jerk thinking about my constant 60psi - am i somehow PAYING for that extra pressure? either in more damage, more electricty, more ?????

Pump guys used to set up systems at 20/40 or 30/50 because pressure tanks actually hold more water at lower pressures. This way they could get more draw down (stored water in the tank). This would cause the pump to cycle less often because there was more water stored in the tank. With the CSV, after you have used the water stored in the tank, the water comes directly from the pump so the amount of water expressed from the tank is no longer of any importance. The pump is not just cycling less but not cycling at all. When the size of the tank is no longer important to limit the number of cycles, then you can turn the pressure up to what ever you want. It does take a larger pump to deliver 10 GPM at 60 PSI than it does to deliver 10 GPM at 40 PSI, but if the pump you have is already large enough to do that, there is no sence in having the pressure switch turn it off at 40 PSI just to get more volume out of the tank. Even with a 60 PSI CSV your pump will still run at 20 or 30 PSI if you just open up enough faucets to bring the pressure down that low. Then you are actually getting a little more water per kilowatt but, at the sacrifice of some pressure. No more water than a house actually uses inside the home, the energy consumption between supplying the house with 60 PSI instead of 40 PSI is almost not measureable. After all it is still the same 1/2 HP or 1 HP pump, the pressure switch is just set for 45/65 instead of 30/50. The only problem I have with 60 PSI constant in my house is that the washing machine and toilets fill so fast, that sometimes I get a little water hammer thump when the toilet float valve closes. I just reduce the flow to the toilet a little with the cut off valve coming out of the wall. It still fills up really fast and I like that, but it does not make the thump noise. I like the 60 PSI on everthing else inside and outside of the house. You do get used to having the 60 PSI so when you go to a neighbors house, their pressure seems so low that you think there is something wrong with their pump. If it feels like too much pressure with the 60 PSI valve, you can always turn it down. And since I reccommended the 60 PSI valve, I will gladly swap it out for a 50 or even 40 PSI if you would rather, but I don't think you will want lower pressure after a day or two at 60 PSI. So let us know what you think.

Thanks. That makes sense. I wasn't even considering that the drawdown capacity would get less as pressures rise. When I receive and install this csv160 I will report back on here my experiences with it.

Remember that with higher pressure, you use more water out of your low flow spring. You also must think about the 'extra' gpm through any water treatment equipment and thereby size it accordingly.

Thanks Gary, the shower and sprinklers will put out more GPM at the higher pressure, but the toilets and washings maching still use the same amount of water, they just fill up faster.

Most cycling causes the capacitor to blow long before the windings, and makes for most of the motor change profits of the ethically challenged pump guys.

Click to expand...

Then there are the two wire motors than don't have a start capacitor or a relay. I addressed this before, maybe you didn't read it. Any pump guy who thinks he is making money by replacing start caps in a normal service call is crazy. Unless you bill like Sears or some of the other big box stores that have service people do, you won't even break even. I agree there are some unethical pump people in this industry, but I think you will find them in every industry. So let's not just pick on the pump guys.

And yes if they change out a motor because of a bad start component in a three wire box, shame on them. Another good reason to use two wire motors.

Cheers to the pressure switch makers - they seem to outlast most systems, don't you think? Although my cousin working for Square D in Chicago recently lost his job as the machine tools just went south to Mexico for the new production line.... when Klein tools closes its forge in Illinois, I am moving to Slovakia.Yesterday 07:05 PM

Click to expand...

Instead of the FSG-2 standard pressure switch made by Square D, I am now using a Chinese knock off switch that is actually better IMO than the Square D switch of today. The quality of the Square D switch has been going down for years. It's pretty bad when we have to say a knock off is better than a US (I think) made brand name product.
And they certainly don't out last the motors anymore.

bob...