Newbie Gas Questions

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stevep

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Hey Folks - I've got a little backyard project in North Cal. going with a firepit, barbecue island, and fireplace with log lighter. I had a plumber lay in yellow gas pipe (3/4" off the house propane line) but he was very flaky and expensive so I want to do the rest myself. So here's a few questions.

1. There's a shut-off at the house wall where the line comes out. Do i need shut-off's at each "appliance" by code? The furthest is about 30' from the wall shut-off.

2. Pressure testing - i'm guessing it's not a good idea, or even sufficient, to pressure test with propane pressure. True? What's the "easy way" to test for leaks? - online source for gauge, pump, etc???

3. Regulators - I already hooked up the firepit w/out regulator and it works great - even full blast is not too much. Do I need a regulator there by code? 'cause i don't want less flame. The gas line goes first to the barbecue (which is just stubbed up right now) then the firepit, the the fireplace (just for log lighting). I asked the plumber if 3/4" would be enough and he ASSURED me, w/propane, NO problem. Now i'm really wondering...

4. Fireplace hook-up - I read somewhere about a "swing link" or something. Do I need flexibility in the line going to the fireplace to accomodate for any "movements". BTW, the fireplace, firepit, and barbecue are on one huge re-inforced slab. (but fireplace is on cinderblocks full of concrete w/rebar going into 25" slab). The gas line is generally beneath the slab.

5. Black Pipe, Galvanized, Flexible - my first instinct is just to use galvanized pipe w/ gas tape everywhere. It's kind of a pain to snake it thru cinderblocks, etc. Is that the dumb way to do it :confused: I read that gas pipe should not be in direct contact with cinder blocks. Is that true???

6. Firepit - I've got two 1/2" holes along the inside to drain propane (or water) Is that sufficient to avoid possible explosions ? :eek:

appreciate your help. Steve
 

hj

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propane

Most areas will not allow a propane appliance that does not have a pilot light and a safety valve because of the danger it the burner is turned on, but not lit immediately. Every device needs a shutoff valve, and a fireplace needs one on the wall within 3' of the fireopening. Gas lines should not run under a concrete slab if it can be avoided. What kind of yellow pipe did he run?
 

Gary Swart

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Steve, I think you've got several issues here that unless done right can get you into serious trouble. In other words, I think you're in over your head, and you should get a licensed plumber to finish this project.
 

ToolsRMe

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stevep said:
Hey Folks - I've got a little backyard project in North Cal. going with a firepit, barbecue island, and fireplace with log lighter.

I'm doing something quite similar.

1. There's a shut-off at the house wall where the line comes out. Do i need shut-off's at each "appliance" by code? The furthest is about 30' from the wall shut-off.

Yes. My inspector also forcefully recommended a debris trap as well.

2. Pressure testing - i'm guessing it's not a good idea, or even sufficient, to pressure test with propane pressure. True? What's the "easy way" to test for leaks? - online source for gauge, pump, etc???

There is no easy way. My inspector insisted on 80 pounds being held for 24 hours. Just like you, I've got the yellow pipe buried under a slab.

3. Regulators - I already hooked up the firepit w/out regulator and it works great - even full blast is not too much. Do I need a regulator there by code? 'cause i don't want less flame. The gas line goes first to the barbecue (which is just stubbed up right now) then the firepit, the the fireplace (just for log lighting). I asked the plumber if 3/4" would be enough and he ASSURED me, w/propane, NO problem. Now i'm really wondering...

Like you, I'm an amatuer plumber. When I don't know something I do one of two things: I go down to the city and talk to the code people. They, in turn, will sometimes have me talk to the inspectors directly. Otherwise, I contact a trusted licensed plumber.

As a Libertarian, I more-than-chafe at government making all these rules about my private property. Here in Colorado we have entire counties that have no building departments and -- surprise! -- people build safely and to code, anyway. Why? Because some day you might want to sell the house and people pay more for houses that meet code. It's remarkable what the free market will do.

Nonetheless, I have come to respect these government-required code experts. They are quite helpful. Doing it right just doesn't cost that much more than doing it "my way"; and often will save a whole bunch of trouble down the line.

4. Fireplace hook-up - I read somewhere about a "swing link" or something. Do I need flexibility in the line going to the fireplace to accomodate for any "movements". BTW, the fireplace, firepit, and barbecue are on one huge re-inforced slab. (but fireplace is on cinderblocks full of concrete w/rebar going into 25" slab). The gas line is generally beneath the slab.

I'm going to be in the market for a fire pit. Why don't you start a new thread and let us/me know what you've done and what you've learned?

5. Black Pipe, Galvanized, Flexible - my first instinct is just to use galvanized pipe w/ gas tape everywhere. It's kind of a pain to snake it thru cinderblocks, etc. Is that the dumb way to do it :confused: I read that gas pipe should not be in direct contact with cinder blocks. Is that true???

I've never heard that.

I have heard about "double sleeving" if gas pipe runs through the foundation below grade.

This is one where you want to be extra careful. Propane is heaver than air. If your pit is below grade and you have propane in the pit and someone lights the pit ... ugh.

6. Firepit - I've got two 1/2" holes along the inside to drain propane (or water) Is that sufficient to avoid possible explosions ? :eek:

appreciate your help.

I'm certainly no expert but .5 inches seems too small. Those holes can easily become plugged with debris.
 

hj

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codes

As a Libertarian, I more-than-chafe at government making all these rules about my private property. Here in Colorado we have entire counties that have no building departments and -- surprise! -- people build safely and to code, anyway.

Is that statement 100% true? I'll give odds that when there are no inspections there are more than a few "home builders" who will cut corners and do it the cheapest way, as long as it looks good once the walls are painted.
 

Shacko

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propane

stevep: I think that you are over your head! Propane is a highly dangerous gas to be messing with out experience; its a bomb waiting to go off! FYI I don't trust most plumbers when we are dealing with propane. I can't believe that where you live that the code would let you do your own hook-up, sorry.

-----------------------
"If you don't have the time to do it right, where will you find the time to do it over?"
 

ToolsRMe

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Libertarians and codes

toosrme said:
As a Libertarian, I more-than-chafe at government making all these rules about my private property. Here in Colorado we have entire counties that have no building departments and -- surprise! -- people build safely and to code, anyway.

hj said:
Is that statement 100% true? I'll give odds that when there are no inspections there are more than a few "home builders" who will cut corners and do it the cheapest way, as long as it looks good once the walls are painted.

Of course it's not 100% true. But just because there are inspectors doesn't mean that contractors don't cut corners. The inspectors are overworked. They won't crawl through an attic to see if all the wiring is right or if the plumber put strapping in to carry a long waste line or angled the line so that there is adequate slope.

I bought my current house. The kitchen faucet pipe ran through an exterior wall and froze in cold weather. Just because it had been "inspected" does not mean that it is right.

A Libertarian will tell you that market-based solutions are almost always better than government imposed solutions ... if only the market is allowed to work.

For instance, did you know that in Cook County (i.e. Chicago) the county clerk has no title records and all title is handled privately (and quite smoothly, thank you). Can you guess why the county clerk doesn't do that? It's an interesting little fact.

Anyway, one of my friends and political allies is fighting the imposition of building codes in the county in which my friend lives. Perhaps my forned knows how often people violate code to cut corners.
 

ToolsRMe

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Mikey said:
I give up; why are there no public title records in Cook County?

They were all lost in the Great Chicago Fire of 1871. There are no "official" records other than what Chicago Title and Trust has.
 

Cass

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The Chicago Title and Trust Company was born of disaster and grew from unrivaled opportunity. The Great Fire of October 8, 1871, that destroyed a substantial portion of the city of Chicago might have also prevented its orderly and timely rebuilding had it not been for the “abstract men” who had prepared meticulous indices and abstracts of all land transactions in Cook County since 1847. Official property records prepared and stored in the courthouse were turned to dust in the flames. Fortunately for the city, three abstract firms, using a system of indexing and summarizing land trading pioneered by Edward A. Rucker, independently salvaged their records. With a minimum of legal challenge and political wrangling, clear title to property was maintained after the fire. The state of Illinois gave the abstracted land titles the status of law in all courts by passing the Burnt Records Act of 1872. Chase Brothers & Co., Jones & Sellars, and Shortall & Hoard consolidated their records and earned for their efforts a legal monopoly on all land dealings in Cook County. The Illinois General Trust Company Act of 1887 allowed the company (renamed Chicago Title and Trust in 1891) to act as executor, administrator, guardian, and trustee for corporations and individuals. With its archive of land tracts and roster of “blind trusts,” CT&T remained the only legal title company operating in Cook County until the 1960s, when the franchise was first opened to out-of-state companies. With their unique inside view of city land dealing, the officers of Chicago Title often found themselves at the critical boundary between politics and business. Under the leadership of men like Holman Pettibone, the company had a discreet and nearly invisible role in the planning and development of modern Chicago.
 

stevep

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Well - this thread has been evolving so i'm gonna throw a little propane on the fire - so to speak.
My house is brand new and quite expensive. When we moved in and turned the dishwasher on, hot water came pouring out the bottom on to our wood floor - it's still cupped a little. Later, my wife took a bath. When she drained the tub, drain water began to leak to the first level from the second level - little sheet rock damage that day:rolleyes: About the same time my girls noted that hot water was spraying out the sides of the control lever in their shower. 9 months later, i had a guy doing some electrical work and he noticed that my pee trap for the master shower was, uh, missing:eek: . All that water from the shower for 9 months was going right in to the soil! OK, so I don't want to offend any plumbers but my house was built by a licensed contractor, with licensed plumbers, and fully inspected and approved. So if you ask me, the "system" is a little broken. So you can see why I have a little DIY fever. If i'm over my head, I must not be the only one.

So about that firepit. Seems the key is to not make it too deep. Most of what I read says the ring should be ~ 6" below the top and the total depth just a few inches more than that. I turned the gas on full and let it run for about 15 seconds (everybody run!). It doesn't exactly blow up but I will say it lights readily :D I'm gonna add a few more side holes just for fun to hopefully make it idiot proof - in other words, so I can use it :D

Thanks for all the input. I'm gonna put that shut-off valve on the side of the fireplace and pressure test it all. I'm amazed at the 80 psi test pressure. This is propane and the working pressure is less that 1 psi. Is the 80 psi for NG? I'm also gonna make sure there's no place for that propane to "pool". Again, thanks for the advice. Steve
 

RRW

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I have no special expertise but I bet the 80 lbs is for natural gas and is to hold the main line pressure in case the reducers fail. I remember that quite a few years ago in Chicago the reducers failed on one section and the pilot lights on stoves were 3 feet tall. That section of town pretty much burned down if I recall correctly. RW
 
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