Really Need Help with this one-driven well?

Hi,

Hope I can get some help or suggestions. Long story short...had a new 1/2 horse shallow well jet pump system installed. The plumber couldn't get the new pumped primed. When he tried to fill the pipe with water it just kept going, wouldn't fill. So had another guy come in to determine the problem, the first plumber threw his hands up, it appears I have a driven well, so the neighbors and one previous owner tells me. The qunadry, when a stiff wire was put down the pipe it stopped just below the suface (this is all in my basement with a concret floor). Perplexing all by itself...after we chisled some concret away at the base of the pipe a few inches and found a horizontal, (90 degree), pipe. This pipe makes a 90 degree turn heading into the middle of the floor. Has any one heard of such a thing, ideas of why there is no suction/pressure to be had? Is it really a driven well if it doesn't go straight down? Tommorow we are getting an electric jackhammer to try and follow the horizontal pipe to see where it goes. I have had no problems with water level or anything of that nature prior to the old pressure tank springing a leak. Needless to say there is no water for the hosue...yikes I'm stumped. Any suggestions are welcome...except telling me I'll have to drill a new well!!!

Amateur reply

BettyB said:

Hi,

Hope I can get some help or suggestions. Long story short...had a new 1/2 horse shallow well jet pump system installed. The plumber couldn't get the new pumped primed. When he tried to fill the pipe with water it just kept going, wouldn't fill. So had another guy come in to determine the problem, the first plumber threw his hands up, it appears I have a driven well, so the neighbors and one previous owner tells me. The qunadry, when a stiff wire was put down the pipe it stopped just below the suface (this is all in my basement with a concret floor). Perplexing all by itself...after we chisled some concret away at the base of the pipe a few inches and found a horizontal, (90 degree), pipe. This pipe makes a 90 degree turn heading into the middle of the floor. Has any one heard of such a thing, ideas of why there is no suction/pressure to be had? Is it really a driven well if it doesn't go straight down? Tommorow we are getting an electric jackhammer to try and follow the horizontal pipe to see where it goes. I have had no problems with water level or anything of that nature prior to the old pressure tank springing a leak. Needless to say there is no water for the hosue...yikes I'm stumped. Any suggestions are welcome...except telling me I'll have to drill a new well!!!

Click to expand...

It sounds like the well was located in another area, possibly in the basement but also possibly somewhere where they had to plumb the lines to the basement. In any case, when trying to fill the system to prime, there is either no check valve at or near the well, or you just have not put in enough water to fill the suction line, or the check valve is not working. Of these, I would look at the old well pump installation to see if the check valve was located at the pump, which is uncommon but not impossible. If at the pump, it means for a difficult time to draw the (air and then) water out of the well (wherever it is located), since you don't know how long the suction line is to the well itself. Right now, you seem to be dealing with the suction line, and it is unusual for newer wells to be using steel pipe, as most wells now use PVC pipe. I would infer that you have a steel pipe suction line coming to the pump; finding the well will allow you to replace the steel, which will eventually rust through and allow suction leaks. Finding the well will also tell you if there is a check valve at the well.
I guess the bottom line is that if you do get the well to pump by getting water from the well to the pump, either by filling the system enough or installing a check valve at the pump and gradually removing the air, you should be back where you were when you started. However, if, after verifying that there was not a check valve in the old installation, then you could also be dealing with a bad check valve, and you could lose prime even if you manage to overcome the trouble priming it the first time.
As a homeowner, it seems to me you really need a well man, not just a plumber, to tell you if your new installation includes the proper components, and a well man can use vacuum guages to determine the current state of your suction line and well.
I am replying because you have not yet gotten a reply, and maybe my reply will spark some discussion! Remember, everyone, I am just a homeowner witl a well of my own I have had some experience with. Good luck to you.

I can't wait to hear what the experts have to say about this one. I don't know how the cost of a jackhammer compares with the cost of a camera, but I'd consider running a camera through the pipe to get an idea of where it goes and how far it goes before ripping up concrete. What size is the pipe, though? (May be too small for a normal plumbing inspection camera -- I know they work well in drain/waste lines, but if you've got a (typical) 1" line with supply ells, that may be a tight squeeze.)

Just read aftdmike's reply, and pretty-much agree, but I didn't see any reference to steel pipe in your post. I'd pump (no pun intended) local old-timers for more information about the driven well. Did they see it get installed? If it is really a shallow driven well, it's not impossible that the well was driven after the house was built, and the cellar had a dirt floor. It'd be easier to drive the well in the middle of the area, but having the pump out there would be awkward, so they could have just piped over to a more convenient location. How old is this place, anyway?

All foot valves are in the well at the end of the drop pipe (suction line). That's for a single line/shallow well (suction only) jet pump. There should not be a check valve between the jet pump and foot valve (just another check valve). All jet pumps have a foot valve only.

A loss of prime is lways caused by a leak in the suction line or a leaking foot valve in the well. Well point wells don't have a foot valve, they usually have a foot valve on the line inside the well pipe or a check valve on top of the well.

I agree with the cement being put down on an original dirt floor or, the line comes in from outside the basement from a buried well, or one in a buried pit.

Thanks everyone for the information. It is a 1 1/4' galvanized steel pipe coming up. The update at this point is the horizontal pipe has been located by jackhammering around and then another vertical pipe was seen going back down. So, yes it seems the well was located a few feet away from the pump site. The next thing that we will try is installing a check valve and see if this will help. I'm really keeping my fingers crossed. If thre are more ideas..I'd be happy to hear them. The house was built in 1945.

If this is a driven well, I would first give the plumber his pump back for installing something he knew nothing about. Especially if the old pump had a check valve and he didn't have enough sense to install one on the new pump.

Once this is done and you have the new pump with a new check valve and a pump full of water, you should be able to get the prime back and back on business.

bob...

I've been asking myself if the plumber really knew what he was doing. He had installed a new boiler for me a couple of years ago and had done a fabulous job. But I wondered if he should have known that the pressure would have been lost or if a check valve was there or needed. I did ask him at one point, What is this, a trip valve..I was pointing to something between the pump and the well pipe and he said he didn't know what it was. At least now I have a new pump and tank..maybe didn't really need a new pump but too late now. If a check valve is installed now will it likely solve the problem, meaning that it would help get the suction to get things primed? Thanks for all the help and ideas. I wish I could give the plumber something..like a size 8!

20 lashes

Be sure he left you the pump for backup to the new one he installed, otherwise it might get sold to the next poor victim. If he doesnt know what a check valve is, then he has no right to own a pipe wrench, much less be called a plumber. This is the sort of so called tech guy that I have mentioned before - preys upon the unknowing - replaces instead of repairs. Tie him to the boiler return pipe and flog him.

Better have the next real plumber check the boiler installation too.

Great advice, size 12 would be even better.

The check valve install should cure the problem. Since this well is in the basement, we have to assume it came before the house and since drilling rigs are very hard to get down the steps. We can assume this well is a hand driven well which would have no footvalve. You already chisled up the concrete and found no valve there, so you do need one.

bob...

check valve

Sounds like you have zeroed in on the problem. Now, for best results, the check valve should really be close to the well itself. That keeps the suction line full of water and makes for a safer pump since there should always be a line full of water for it to start with. If you decide to just put the valve near the pump, getting it primed may take a while since you will have to bleed quite a bit of air before water will rise up the well and through the suction line to the pump. That means you will have to have a way to let air out while you run the pump. Please be careful not to run the pump without water flowing through it. Usually, that means that you must run it for a minute while bleeding air, shut it off, reprime it and run it some more while bleeding air until water starts flowing continuously. Damage can result to the pump if it heats up very much, so be patient. One guys opinion. Good luck.

saved

I just wanted to thank everyone that responded...I have running water again! With a new check valve installed I'm good to go. I'm well versed, no pun intended, in wells and jet pump systems now!

Well done! (No pun intended.) It strikes me that if this house was built in 1945, it might have had a hand-pumped pump at the sink (see Speedbump's graphic). Is the well location directly under the kitchen?

No, the well is located about 6 feet from an outside wall in the basement, not near the kitchen. The next question is...will the plumber charge me full rate/billing since he left me high and dry? I think he should have known to install a new check valve. But I have to say he didn't know what kind of well I had at that time. His guess was that I needed a new foot valve. We'll see what kind of bill I get in the mail.