Easy demo of csv theory

I was asking a well driller guy about the csv earlier today. At first he didnt understand what I meant, then he breaks into a smile, and mentions a throttling valve, such as a smart tee. He said that the theory can easily be demonstrated with a common box type fan and some cardboard, then we had some fun! He said to think of a pump as nothing but a fan, with water as the substance being moved instead of air. We took a box fan, blocked first part of the intake with a sheet of cardboard, then blocked part of the exhaust. The speed of the fan increased in both instances. Then we made a square tube of cardboard, funnel shaped it so that it was smaller at the exhaust end, and taped it to the front of the fan. The fan speed slowed way down trying to push the air through the tube at maximum flow capacity. Then we partially blocked the end of our tube, and the fan sped way up. He says that the operation of the throttling valve, or cycle stop calve, is exactly the same. When the fan slows down, it draws more amps. When it speeds up, it can use less than half of the energy to keep a small amount of air moving. Just found this interesting, and may even have a new member for you guys.

Im just very curious to the csv, and having read the pros and cons, Im actually starting to become confused over them. My interest is for my own well, which I have set up as a shared well. My pump and pressure tank both are fast approaching 14 years of age, and from what I have read here, Im assuming has already passed its lifespan twice, and is serving 3 houses at its age as well. I know that very soon I can expect to have to start replacing things, and when that time comes, I am debating on setting it up as a constant pressure system. From my construction sheet, my current pump is a 10EJ10422 goulds, 1 horse, and my current tank is a goulds V-200-B, burried in the ground right beside the well. I have decided that when the time comes to replace either pump or tank, I am going to replace both together, as well as the drop pipe and cable, and my ultimate goal when that time comes is to do anything that can be done to try and see to it that I can go at least another 14 years without a problem.

Something else that I have been wondering about with the new pumps. I have read in several places here about concerns with stainless impellers v/s the floating stack type plastic ones. Our water is very hard in this area, but otherwise is of good quality. I do get a small amount of sand in my water filters through the dry summer months, but usually they can go as long as 4-5 months before they get really nasty looking. Is this something that I should be concerned about when the time comes for a new pump? Which is better for small amounts of sand? Floating, or stainless?

Another thing to consider. The fan motor is a totally different motor than a submersible pump motor. I do not think you can see too much varience in the speed regardless of the amount of work being done.

And high pressures do not blow motor bearings or thrust bearings which are in the bottom of the motor.
If the motors weren't designed to work under these loads, they would have had the manufacturers remove all but one impeller. Then we would be back to jets and centrifugals.

bob...

speedbump said:

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And high pressures do not blow motor bearings or thrust bearings which are in the bottom of the motor.
If the motors weren't designed to work under these loads, they would have had the manufacturers remove all but one impeller. Then we would be back to jets and centrifugals.

bob...

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Knowing a little bit about motors, I did question in my mind the statement about blowing bearings. I know that most motors are rated under no load, which is the speed that they are designed for, and I know that adding any load at all, even a single imeller as in a jet, drops the actual rpm, which in turn raises the amp draw slightly. Also, I would love to have some more info on the csv. I am anxiously waiting for rancher's test, and his results as well, though I could care less about the actual electricity used. A friend recently sold a house which was connected to city water and sewer, and bought a nice country home with well and septic. He's always complaining about the water pressure rise and fall when the pump starts and stops, but by looking at his guage, his pump is set at an odd ratio, with 20 psi on setting, and 50 psi off setting.

He's always complaining about the water pressure rise and fall when the pump starts and stops, but by looking at his guage, his pump is set at an odd ratio, with 20 psi on setting, and 50 psi off setting.

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He should raise the 20 to at least 30. If he has a jet pump, that might be all he can do. If he has a submersible the csv is the way to go.

bob...

speedbump said:

He should raise the 20 to at least 30. If he has a jet pump, that might be all he can do. If he has a submersible the csv is the way to go.

bob...

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Hi is a jet. Well is located right beside his garage, and pump is mounted on top of pressure tank, which sets in the back of his garage (slab construction house). I dont understand how a jet even works here, as most wells around here are between 250-350 foot deep, and I always thought that jets were for shallow wells. Will a csv not work on a jet? Just curious.

Speedbump, can you please send me some info on a csv for my system (burried pressure tank, no above ground access)? What info do you need to give me an idea of what I need? Also, if I remember right, there is a gentleman here who deals with water treatment. I am in despirate need of a small water softner for my house. Ive been told that my main problem is dissolved limestone, and calcium, ph level nuetral, no iron, phosphates, or nitrates, whatever that means, but Ive just grown tired of replacing water heater elements every 6-8 months! I dont want anything fancy, but I dont want a cheap junky unit from a box store either. I'd rather have something that I can install, and other than normal maintenance and replacement of salt/media, that I can forget about. My house is on a 3' crawl space, main water line enters through the wall in a storage closet dead center of the house, so I need something small enough to fit into a confined space, such as either the crawl space, or the utility closet. If someone can give me any info, when I do the job, I am willing to support the people here who are generous enough to donate their time to people like me, that is if it is possible to order by phone or internet, and ship such a device to my home.

abikerboy said:

Speedbump, if I remember right, there is a gentleman here who deals with water treatment. I am in despirate need of a small water softner for my house. Ive been told that my main problem is dissolved limestone, and calcium, ph level nuetral, no iron, phosphates, or nitrates, whatever that means, but Ive just grown tired of replacing water heater elements every 6-8 months! I dont want anything fancy, but I dont want a cheap junky unit from a box store either. I'd rather have something that I can install, and other than normal maintenance and replacement of salt/media, that I can forget about. My house is on a 3' crawl space, main water line enters through the wall in a storage closet dead center of the house, so I need something small enough to fit into a confined space, such as either the crawl space, or the utility closet. If someone can give me any info, when I do the job, I am willing to support the people here who are generous enough to donate their time to people like me, that is if it is possible to order by phone or Internet, and ship such a device to my home.

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Maybe I'm who you are thinking of... I accept web site and phone orders and sell to folks all over the country after fairly extensive phone consultation. The equipment is delivered to your door. Most of my customers with crawl spaces dig a shallow sloped front hole to stand the equipment in. You must protect the equipment from freezing if there is a chance of freezing. Closets are tough for a softener, although I've put some in closets, you may not be able to get the correct size softener into a closet; the crawl space is a better choice.

Your small refers to physical size but, the salt efficiency/capacity and SFR gpm requirement dictates the volume of resin which dictates the physical size of the softener.

You need a water analysis for hardness, iron and pH at least, and then you should visit my web site and its sizing and calculator pages. Then call me and I can correctly size a softener based on both capacity/salt efficiency and SFR (service flow rate) for the family and house peak demand.

I'll throw my 2 cents worth in this discussion about CSVs and VFDs, pros and cons, etc., etc., etc.
I think there's probably three things to think about when weighing out whether to use a CSV, a VFD, or neither.
The first two, of course, are understanding what CSVs and VFDs are capable of, and what they can do for you. The third thing is understanding what the problems are with the system you are designing or working on.
We worked on a small municiple water system (40 homes) that used a submersible well pump to fill a 50,000 gallon storage tank, an above ground pump to pressurize the system at 30/50 and a bank of 8 large bladder tanks. The system operator was tired of replacing tanks with blown bladders, and his pressure pumps beating the heck out of themselves. We looked things over, and decided to install a CSV, eliminate all but one tank and adjusted the pressure switch to a narrower band. He supplies steady pressure to his customers and the system has worked flawlessly for the past 6 months. Mark one up for CSVs.
Another job we did was a irrigation system that wasn't designed around any particular pump parameters. After evaluating the system, we spec'd a pump and VFD that covered the full range of the system's needs. It's worked perfectly all summer long, even though the ambient temperatures in this area frequently approach 120 degrees. Mark one up for VFDs.
On the other hand, VFD's can't do it all. I have a customer who brought me his plans for an irrigation system (great plans!) and insisted that he wanted to use a VFD. So I spec'd the pump and drive for his system. However, when he installed his system, he radically changed his plans. Long story short, he's now having trouble keeping the system operational. Had he came back to me, we could have respec'd the pump and drive, or used a pump with a CSV, or even used a conventional pump/tank system. Lesson learned here is that a VFD cant do everything when a design is taken out of it's capabilities.
My rule of thumb in my business is that I keep it as simple as possible. If a pump, with a pressure tank and a 30/50 switch will do the job, then that's all that's needed.
Ron

Valveman

Thanks for chiming in Pumpman!! That is the kind of comparisons I like to see. The real test is a few years down the road. I can predict from experience that in the long run the VFD customer will spend more money and have more down time (out of water) than the CSV customer. The CSV customer will be your customer for life, but spend less money with you. The VFD customer will spend a little more money with you, then you may lose a customer over it. It takes a long time to gain a customers trust, and about a second to lose it.

Listen to me I do sound like a saleman. I am not really worth a darn as a saleman. I just really believe what I am saying. Having been in the pump business all my life, every phone call is a problem with a customer mad and out of water. These valves have been a way for me to easily fix nearly every problem they can throw at me. My customers are happy because they don't have to see me as often. It was a little reduction in sales per customer but was made up for by the fact that it cut my warranties to nothing and got me many new customers. I never realized how much warranties were costing me till I stopped having them.