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Thread: Is there a class action lawsuit against Kitec piping?

  1. #76
    Master Plumber Dunbar Plumbing's Avatar
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    Default Here's an ideal world Gary

    An ideal world that mickey's situation never existed to begin with.

    An ideal world that this house doesn't have holes galore to see the piping in his walls

    An ideal world that the mfg of this piping SHOULD of tested their materials before gloating its promise of everything great and now the thousands of people are suffering from that choice.

    In your ideal world gary you would probably tell mickey to go ahead and pull those pipes into position, stretching them to use a new fitting to connect two or three pipes back together.

    Another bad scenario grows from that as well. The proper workmanship you mention would not include stretching those pipes to meet each other to say lets replace a tee. Pulling that pipe tighter will create the issue of thermal expansion if there is no "give" to the pipe and now when hot water goes through the piping, it's pulling on that new connection.

    SO,

    The correct application for Mickey's dilemma would be to use 4 connections, not 1 like before at a tee intersection of a line. 3 couplings and 1 tee so that the piping is not strained or pulled together to make that next connection.


    Explain to me and the internet world gary how this is acceptable for someone who has a house with this piping system to go after 4 connections to 1 if they want it done right. Every time you add more connections to any piping system, the cost and the possibility of leaks grows.


    Here's what the public is not aware of regarding these systems:

    Certain PEX mfg. are already out of business.....quit making their product and even though it was installed...there is no way to sue them if and when it fails. < How would you like to be waiting for that ticking time bomb to go off...and not know of the situation?

    "Other" companies from a profit endeavor are trying to make products (crimp rings for example) to make up for what this once been company produced.

    System failures have been proven in hydronic systems (see link above)

    Makes no sense how the plastic industry passes off a product before thoroughly tested. OTHERWISE THESE LIABILITY ISSUES WOULDN"T EXIST

    I'm going to try to get an association of condo owners to join this thread who had a plumber in my area plumb their units with QEST PEX piping.

    Static pressure to the unit is 75 pounds, large thermal expansion tank at the meter group. All piping was installed per say code.

    Riddled with leaks, breaks are common monthly...the product is tearing open like it is ripping open longways in 1"-4" openings. It happens randomly throughout the home and the mfg. of the product AND the state plumbing committee who approved this garbage hasn't identified it's problem source.

    In the meantime the condo owners are suffering with the ongoing charges mounted by the plumbers,

    no class action lawsuit or "BIG MONEY" as gary wants you to think is motive even exists at this point,

    The homeowners, like some of you have joined and tons of you who have viewed this thread now and in the future are in a similar situation.

    It all equates to cost savings the builder/plumber assumed was in the best interest of all......and it wasn't.

    There are "those" who will try to discredit any of the bad things plastic water line systems produce.....that is why there is opposition to the reality of why this thread exists. That's fine. The "truth" is that there are tons of innocent victims that have issues with their plumbing system thanks to corporate decisions all the way down to the supplier then the plumber who installed this piping system that is KILLING the reputation of this so called good product.

    PB, BLUE MAX, PEX < All plastic piping systems...now they are all combined with legal issues stemming from its use.

    And these "victims" shouldn't have emotion? pfffft! Tell that to the single mother that has the possibility of losing her condo because the condo association WON'T ASSUME RESPONSIBILITY for the defective product,


    and she's shelling constant money out periodically to fix repairs not only to the piping itself, but the walls, wood, paint, drywall, wallpaper, carpet, or anything else that when the piping busts, it does damage.


    These victims have a voice in their situation....life interrupted is exactly what it is.


    To mickey,

    Unfortunately it sounds like there was a decision reached in the court system that didn't have allowances for larger homes and costs incurred. I would NOT go with the thinking of leaving the pipe in. All of those connections will be a sight to see along with the possibility of more leaks at any connection.

    Since major demolition would be needed to replace your system, take the shortcut ( a risk you have to take....and knowing what flavor of PEX isn't failing right now ) and repipe the house with minimal damage to structure.


    Try to keep it under the confines of the settlement amount, THEN SELL THE BUILDING.

    Get as far away from the responsibility of that piping system before it fails. Otherwise the "twice bitten" bug is coming to get you.....and you have only to blame yourself for stalling.

    Keep up the good work gary, chain posting and trying to dispute the reality of these failed systems keeps this subject matter in top view and priority. I'm all for it and keep up the good work.

    I'm sure there is a consensus can be drawn that my intentions in these subject matters are of the concern that people/homeowners are getting the short end of the stick in these situations.....and I'm all for protecting them with getting them the info they need to make INFORMED decisions before buying a property that unknowingly might have one of these failing systems.

    There's a value to that information...that's why I'm doing the deed to help. Thank you too gary. It wouldn't be fun without ya. I look forward to your rebuttal! :hugs: :kisses: :holdshands:
    Last edited by Dunbar Plumbing; 01-18-2007 at 09:37 AM.
    Read what the end of this sentence means.

  2. #77
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    rugged, you say "PB, BLUE MAX, PEX < All plastic piping systems...now they are all combined with legal issues stemming from its use.".

    I agree, you're right. And I agree that many people are suffering huge financial and emotional losses due to leaking water lines.

    What I disagree with and IMO you are wrong in, is your implying/inferring that all plastic everywhere is bad and shouldn't be used by anyone at anytime.

    Doing that is like saying vehicles should be banned because of the litterally million plus people per year, year after year for the last 50 plus years, that suffer life changing serious injuries and their expense.

    You will not admit to any problems with copper that is causing large numbers of people the same expensive damages and emotional time bomb life changing distress as those with plastic water lines.

    They have the same holes in the wall and until the copper is torn out and replaced, more leaks to look forward to, no matter if it's a retired couple on $400/month SS in an apartment or a single mother with four kids in her divorce settlement 4 bedroom slum or $500K house/condo she worked 24 hrs. a day over the last 20 years for.

    It's all terrible, period. Yet we all need affordable water lines in our houses. There is no even close to perfect defect free water line material; or accident free vehicle. So all that proves is that life is a risk and living is risky, but it still beats the only alternative.

    The truth is that the vast majority of residential water lines never leak before they are torn out of the building because of low flow or during a remodel etc. and most of us never have a vehicular accident with any more than minor injuries.

    I suggest we all admit it, evaluate the causes of both leaking water lines in houses/buildings and of vehicular accidents and prevent as many as possible and move on making everyone's lives better. All that depends on accurate information and gossip prevents accuracy and gets many going in the wrong direction which simply adds to the problems they are trying to solve.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
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  3. #78
    Master Plumber Dunbar Plumbing's Avatar
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    Gary,

    Plastic piping is here to stay, I won't change that and no one will. There "are" good plastic piping systems out there with some consideration following their track records of error-free operation.

    My stance on this whole subject matter refers to the defense of products that need a word of caution before you proceed.

    I bet the bank and I'll win on this next statement; Affordable piping in the minds of people would constitute that with the problems associated with failing piping systems, these people who are victimized by their situation....they would of paid double for the piping if they knew the train wreck that was coming.


    Even though I'm young(er) and still have lots and lots to learn in this profession, I come from the teachings of old school plumbing to express caution when the next fast and furious item comes into my hands to use.

    I guess that premace follows the baseline that I'm living in an area that years and years from now........when product fails like we all know that anything man-made does,

    I did what was in my best interest for those I worked for and myself to protect them from any product that indirectly causes harm/property damage.

    Example,

    I have installed nearly 200 B&K anti-siphon hose bibbs in my area over the last 3 years. I've only had 8 callbacks of the handles snapping. It's not my fault. It's a design flaw in the handle that cracks by exposure to UV rays and the fact that if the stem loses grease and gains friction, the handle is the first to go.

    I feel bad about it even though Mueller supplies the customer with a free handle @ no charge to them. It's the fact the customer made a informed decision to trust me to put the best product available at the time....and now that I've been getting these returning calls, I'm thinking that maybe it wasn't the best product.

    If only B&K would make an aluminum handle....I would buy them in bulk, send them to every customer I installed that for and go with the proactive approach to protect their interests and my reputation.

    Thing is, they don't make it. Wouldn't care if it cost me $500 for a box of handles.....I'm putting the consideration out there that I'm giving the customer something that will fix the problem at no cost to them.

    Every time this consideration of the repeated failures of plastic piping comes into play, you bring up copper corrosion/pinholing issues.


    I never stated that copper is the best choice for all areas. When copper fails 95% of the time, it's regional, it's normally always tied to either an electrical issue or ph levels found in water. Drive a car in wet and snowy weather where salt is used to de-ice and you'll have corrosion on the fenders of your car.

    If copper was extremely easy to install......it would be riddled with the same problems some of the plastic piping systems have.

    My point solely in being vocal in this matter of new piping systems is to

    review case histories of similar products
    follow the patterns of product failures and what causes them
    determine if its use is dictated solely by economics (cheap)
    determine if its use is faultered solely by workmanship (inexperienced installers because of its simplicity)
    Follow patterns of companies "bandwagoning" and joining the efforts to make a product and short term shut down....to avoid liability.


    No man-made product is perfect for ALL applications....it never will be.

    Look at toilets.....look at the reliability standards those follow. There are some on that map that consistently flunk on the chart due to poor performance.


    You know why they are still buying those low-performers? Economics of the individual or simply not being aware of what they purchased......and they find out the hard way later.

    I can honestly state for the record that I DO NOT know all the flavors of plastic piping out there. I can gauge by certain forums I belong to that their are preferable ones that are holding up......but I cannot for the life of me determine the "down the road" presence of reliability. It's too damn new.

    Why aren't this forums riddled with (*I have a house that was plumbed with PEX 34 years ago and I have a question about.....*)

    All I get in the forums are (*I have a house that has PB or BlueMax and I want to know if this system needs to be replaced, can you.....*)

    I can't be sold on any product in the profession of plumbing regarding plastic piping until the lawsuits and continuing problems with these systems.....minimize.
    Read what the end of this sentence means.

  4. #79
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Ok, I agree that people need to look where they'll land before leaping. And most do not do that because they just "love the house" and must have it N O W or, they pinch every penny and go solely on price. And many get taken and burned BUT, there's nothing like the school of hard knocks to teach unforgettable lessons.

    The problem today is that most of those folks refuse to take any responsibility for THEIR decisions that got'em burned; it's always someone else's fault.

    I can appreciate you wanting to replace faucet handles before they break because you think maybe they aren't as good as you told people they were. I've been there a few times myself. And I went back to all of those customers and informed them of what I had learned. I was well recieved, so maybe you should get a case of handles and do it; write it off as advertising expense. Or, tell them to remove the handle and keep it inside until they need it and find some key chain for them to use so they don't misplace the handle.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
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    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  5. #80

    Default A question for the professionals re Kitec/Aquapex

    I am a layperson who's been sent the class action information by a lawfirm in Nevada re Kitec plumbing.
    My electrical box has a sticker that says I have Aquapex by Wirsbo. My homeowners manual says the same thing.
    The law firm says they sent the letter to anyone who they had reason to believe might have Kitec plumbing. They say the only way to verify what I have is to have an inspection - the least invasive way by having a plumber poke a pencil eraser size hole under the kitchen sink and insert a camera to take a picture of the fittings.
    I asked whether the brand of fittings used could be mixed throughout the house and the lawyer said no, only the fitting appropriate to the brand of tubing could be used.
    So here is my question
    Most of the tubes are run through our attic and dropped through the walls to the bathrooms and kitchen. If only Kitec fittings can be used with Kitec tubing and Aquapex fittings with Aquapex tubing, why can't someone just go into the attic and look at the type of tubing used to determine what type of fitting we have??? Why does there have to be any cutting through the drywall at all???
    I appreciate any insight the pros on this site can give.

  6. #81
    Rancher
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    Quote Originally Posted by Downhome
    I asked whether the brand of fittings used could be mixed throughout the house and the lawyer said no, only the fitting appropriate to the brand of tubing could be used.
    This doesn't sound correct, PEX is PEX... correct?

    Rancher

  7. #82
    Plumbing Instructor Plumb or Die's Avatar
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    PEX and Kitec are different. Kitec (PEX/AL/PEX) fittings that I've installed are similar to PEX fittings, but where PEX fittings are just barbed, the Kitec ones have two rubber O-rings seated in the barbs. But hey, I'm in Canada, you guys might have different stuff down there.
    Also, I remember when polybutylene started crapping out and the lawsuits started, that was Nevada too. What's up with that?
    I like plumbing. Plumbing's my favorite.

  8. #83
    Rancher
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    Quote Originally Posted by Plumb or Die
    PEX and Kitec are different. Kitec (PEX/AL/PEX) fittings that I've installed are similar to PEX fittings,
    I thought all the PEX pipe suppliers supplied both kinds... I know Wirsbo also makes a PEX/AL/PEX pipe...

    And I would assume you use different connectors for each, but does that mean I can't use a Kitec connector on a Wirsbo pipe and visa versa?

    Rancher

  9. #84
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    In reply to the camera inspection post... lawyers doing class action law suits need all the complainants they can get; hence the shotgun approach letter. They also need proof, hence the on site inspection, that each household/person is actually able to be involved in the law suit. The more there are the larger the problem and larger the settlement, if any. And many class action lawyers and/or their staff do not know or understand everything about the products or processes etc. they file law suits against, or gather info on and spread incorrect info in some cases.

    To be fair to class action lawyers, they do all the leg work, and educating themselves about the products etc. and court time all at their expense and it can take many years to reach a decision and then usually there are appeals and they recover all their expenses and hopefully make a profit out of the settlement, if any. That's why they get the lions share of any settlement AND since they win all suits, it's why they charge so much for their services. IOWs they gamble their money, their reputation and future.

    I do not know for sure but I believe most brands of PEX have their own line of fittings (along with some universal type compression fittings) because the ID of the pipe can vary from one brand to another because all PEX is CTS (copper tubing size) meaning only the OD is maintained and the ID varies. Unlike IPS (iron pipe size) that maintains the ID and the OD varies.

    For potable water lines CTS types are PB, PE, PEX, CPVC, copper and IPS is PE and PVC. PE is made in both but for water lines it's IPS while softeners, filters etc. use CTS for drain and brine lines although IPS can be used for drain lines also.

    And then there are the different types of fittings. Some PEX is expanded, the fitting is installed and the tubing shrinks onto the fitting and crimped, or another insert type has a compression nut. I believe at least one manufacturer refuses to sell their PEX to anyone that has not completed their training; is it WIRSBO?

    And there are three types of PEX based on how it is manufactured. So thinking that all PEX is the same is like calling all copper copper, or all plastic plastic, without getting into the differences between M, L and K or PVC, CPVC PE, PB etc. and any of the various specs/applications and/or types...
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
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    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  10. #85

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    gary, you say there three types of pex based on how they're manufactured. can you please explain. Also,can you recommend a brand or two with a great track record{pipe and fittings}. thank you in advance

  11. #86
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
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    Not to be a kill-joy, but a little search using google will get you the info you request in far more detail than can be posted here. Then come back with a question. Some of the choices plumbers make in choosing is which brand their local supplier carries, and has little to do with the differences between the types.
    Jim DeBruycker
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  12. #87
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Maybe I should have said there are three ways to manufacture PEX... they are somewhat different and may give one type an edge over the others. I think they PEX-a, b and c but could be wrong. A search will find the info.

    I've used some QEST PEX but I don't know one brands' difference from another.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  13. #88

    Default My original question

    So here is my question - can anyone answer this for me?

    Most of the tubes are run through our attic and dropped through the walls to the bathrooms and kitchen. If only Kitec fittings can be used with Kitec tubing and Aquapex fittings with Aquapex tubing, why can't someone just go into the attic and look at the type of tubing used to determine what type of fitting we have??? Why does there have to be any cutting through the drywall at all???
    I appreciate any insight the pros on this site can give.
    01-19-2007 07:17 AM

  14. #89
    Master Plumber master plumber mark's Avatar
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    Talking the future nightmares we all face

    That is why I still love copper .


    I do use the WIRSBO pex only..with the heavy duty expansion rings...

    but now they are even finding ways to mess up that system
    with shitty wimpy crimp rings instead of the expansion couplings....


    everyone is trying to make things easier and cheaper to use
    without too much concern what might hapen down the road
    and no one is really watching these pipe compnaies too closely



    I might be wrong,
    but I still feel that in about another 10 years from now


    THEIR IS GOING TO BE BLOODY HELL TO PAY for everyone

    involved in some of these low end pexes...........

    just have an decent 2 millioin dollar umbrella policy on your company

    so when you get named along with the builders
    and the bankrupt pex companies in all the many lawsuits,

    at least your defence will be for free


    and I am trying to stick to only one brand that I feel is best
    Last edited by master plumber mark; 01-23-2007 at 05:27 PM.

  15. #90
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    downhome... looking at the car/PU/SUV doesn't tell you what engine is in it and looking at your tubing isn't going to tell you the type or brand of fittings used.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

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