Installation of Submersible Pump

[King_Aero]

I'm trying to replace a 30 year old 3 wire submersible pump. The existing wire line from the pump to the well head only has a red/black/yellow cable. All of the pumps I've seen now come with the green ground wire. What is the best way to replace the pump? I.e. New pump (obviously) and new wire? Can I use the existing wire and convert to a 2 wire using the yellow for the green? Can I just not use the green at all?

The other thing that I'm not sure of is the two black wires from a two wire pump. The existing pressure switch has two black leads and two whites leads, this is fine because of the control box. But if I go with a two wire system, I have to assume it doesn't matter where the two black leads go from the pump.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks

[Bob NH]

You need to differentiate between what will work, and what is correct, and decide which you will do.

You should check if the current pump is operating at 230 Volts or 115 Volts. If it is 230 volts, then the wires to the switch should have 230 Volts between them.

A pump will work without a ground. You shouldn't try to operate it without a ground.

If you use a 2-wire pump, you could use the third wire as a ground. You should identify it as a ground wire. Two-wire pumps are more common than they used to be.

With a 30 year old pump and wire, I would replace the wire as well and use the correct wire.

[valveman]

I think it is interesting that your pump ran for 30 years safely without a fourth wire for a ground. Some engineer came up with this forth wire idea a few years back and we have all had to deal with it. How could you ground anything any better than installing it in ground water? Don't get me started. Anyway a two wire motor has less starting torque than a three wire. Three wire is better. You can run a new single wire for a ground. If your old wire is not cracked and still looks good, I would reuse it. They don't make wire like that anymore. It is probably solid copper instead of stranded like the new stuff. The old wire probably has thick neopreme insulation not like the thin thhn stuff you get today. Don't count on 30 years out of the new pump, they don't make pumps and motors like that anymore either. New pumps are built with "planned obsolescense" in mind and are designed to average about 7 years. The new motor will probably be about half the length of the old motor.

[Raucina]

I agree, forget the new ground wire, you dont need it. Just use the three wires for a three wire pump. Test the old wires while still in the well with a good ohmmeter following any submersible pump manual for resistance values - this will tell you exactly how the insulation is holding up to water infiltration and cracking of insulation without any visual inspection.

[crossthreaded]

I installed a new 3 wire pump, control box, and switch recently. the pump ran for about 20 minutes and then cut off and won't come back on.

it is a j class jacuzzi 3/4 hp.

when we pulled the 3 wire pump out and it had 4 wires we called the guy at the pump supply house and he said to just leave the 4th wire with the other wires and not connect it to anything. I decided to put some heat shrink on the end of the 4th wire, could this be the cause of why I have no water? I'm very tired of not having any water as it's been almost 2 weeks.

I already posted at the DIY forum and can't seem to get any responses.

[Bob NH]

The question is, which three of the four wires at the pump are connected to which three wires going down. I assume that you left the green wire at the pump disconnected.

I assume that you matched the colors on the pump wires, the down hole wires, and the control box wires.

Have you checked the voltage at the control box going down to the pump? Are you getting correct voltage?

Measure the resistance of the windings in the motor, using a multimeter that every homeowner (especially one with a pump) should own. Measure the resistance between all pairs of wires and report by wire color pair. Also, tell us the length and gauge of wire from control box to pump.

Measure the resistance of each of the wires to "Ground".

[speedbump]

Why did you pull the old pump? Did you change the wire when you changed the pump?

bob...

[crossthreaded]

no we did not change the old wires when pulled, they were still fine with 1.3 ohms over a 190 foot run. checked them all for continuity and non-continuity when the pump was pulled.

my friend and I just pulled the pump again and hooked the pump straight to the well head supply lines, without 190 foot drop lines. the pump has 110-120v on all 3 wires directly at the last splice and still will not kick on. again this power reading is only obtained when one probe from the dvom is stuck into the ground; otherwise the readings are only 10-16v.

could this be anything other than a bad pump?







we pulled the old pump b/c it was 16 y/o and quit working.

[speedbump]

When you ohmed these wires, did you put them in water and check the insulation? If not, this might be your problem.

I never put the old wire back in with a new pump, it just isn't worth the risk.

bob...

[crossthreaded]

well if it was the wires that went from the well head down to the pump then the pump would work when I hooked it straight up and it didn't. I think it's a bad pump, that would explain why it worked for 20 minutes then stopped.

I might go ahead and replace the wires now, but that isn't the problem ( as far as I can tell), at least not the wires from the well head to the pump; now that they have been removed from the circuit and the pump still doesn't work.

I gues I coudl take the pump into the basement and hook it straight up to the control box and see if it kicks on.?

[speedbump]

If you know how to operate the volt/ohm meter you could do that real easy without having to hook the pump up at all. Just check the voltage, then disconnect them from the pressure switch or control box, twist the ends together and check to ground out at the other end. Then twist just two of them together and check continuity. The wires in the ground if not in conduit should show more than 50,000 ohms to ground minimum. If not, replace them. The 190 feet of wire needs to be put in a metal container filled with water with all uninsulated ends out of the water. Put one probe on the bucket and the other on the ends to check for a nick in the wire. It only takes one.

What brand pump did you install?

bob...

[crossthreaded]

If you know how to operate the volt/ohm meter you could do that real easy without having to hook the pump up at all. Just check the voltage, then disconnect them from the pressure switch or control box, twist the ends together and check to ground out at the other end. Then twist just two of them together and check continuity. The wires in the ground if not in conduit should show more than 50,000 ohms to ground minimum. If not, replace them. The 190 feet of wire needs to be put in a metal container filled with water with all uninsulated ends out of the water. Put one probe on the bucket and the other on the ends to check for a nick in the wire. It only takes one.

What brand pump did you install?

bob...

it's a j class jacuzzi.

I did what I think you are speaking of doing with the wires. my friends preacher is a well installer and I have been talking to him about this. you are saying to put yellow and red together at one end and check the ohms b/w the wires at the other? thats how we checked them, in all combinations, we then checked the wires not twisted together for continuity b/w each other inchase they were chaffed. everything checked out fine. I don't see how it could be the wires when it's getting the correct voltage all the way up to the pump. I have some 230v romex that I was going to use for moving my dryer that I could hook up to the control box and then to the pump and see if it kicks on, but if I was going to do that coudlnt' I just put the pump straight to the control box? if it kicks on hooked straight up then I know it is a bad wire and I'll replace all 250 feet. if it doenst' then I can deduce that it's a bad pump right?

this pump is 4 days old and only worked for 20 minutes, if it was a bad wire that was nicked from install then it woudlnt 'have worked at all most likely, I think that the pump just burned out.

i'm not trying to say you are wrong about checking the wires and all, i know a fair bit about electricity, just not much experience with home wiring.

[speedbump]

Did you have the pump wires in water when you checked them?

The wires in the ground if they are not in conduit will show a ground if they are bad. Otherwise you should read infinity.

I'm not sure what you did with the wires not twisted together, but it should have been checking them to ground also. The scale on your meter if analog should be X1 for continuity and the highest scale you have for checking to ground. And hopefully it is as high as X1K.

I agree that if you applied power to the pump and it didn't run that it could be bad. The question is why?

bob...

[crossthreaded]

Did you have the pump wires in water when you checked them?

The wires in the ground if they are not in conduit will show a ground if they are bad. Otherwise you should read infinity.

I'm not sure what you did with the wires not twisted together, but it should have been checking them to ground also. The scale on your meter if analog should be X1 for continuity and the highest scale you have for checking to ground. And hopefully it is as high as X1K.

I agree that if you applied power to the pump and it didn't run that it could be bad. The question is why?

bob...

i talked to a plumber friend and he said to leave the wires unhooked and check b/w them all in pairs on the ohm scale to see if they were shorting out b/w eachother.

there were only 3 wires running from the house to the pump, the well pump guy said to leave the 4th wire unhooked so I put some heat shrink on the end of it and stuck everything back into the well.

I need to go return a second control box that I bought so I might just take the pump with me and see if they can hook it up at the supply house and check it, if it's bad i'm going to go swap it out, possibly for a 2 wire if they will let me so that I can use the 3rd wire as the ground.

thanks for the help man, i'll post here in an hour or so when i get back.

[crossthreaded]

went and got the pump checked, it is rated at 7 gpm and was putting out almost 10 gpm @ 157 psi.

did find a bad check valve though, but I don't think that is causing it, neither does the pump salesman.

so now we are just on to wiring. he said he could sell me the wire at .45 c/f so I might just go ahead and replace the whole shebang all the way to the breaker box if I don't find anything else wrong in the next little bit.

but hey at least I know the pump is working fine now.

I didnt' mean to hijack this thread so I might start a new one if this problem isn't resolved soon.