what happened to my new system

just put in a 3/4 hp goulds pump 5gs07, about 6.5 gal/min set at 160ft- 10 ft off bottom of well, plenty of water to 50ft of top of well. wx-205 34 gal. well-x-trol bladder tank... 40-60 pressure switch...1in black pvc in well. All new stuff. plenty of pressure and volume the first 2 days, now 7 days later low volume and low pressure. Water is clean and soft with no dirt or sand. The first 2 days the pressure would go from 40 to 60 in about a minute now 3 minutes and it barely gets past 40 psi I' m afraid to let run much longer. any suggestions as to what the problem might be?

Does it ever get up to pressure and shut off? If so, how long before it kicks in again? I had a leak at a submersible pump - poly connection, crack in the PE pipe at the hose barb to pump connection, causing long run time and rapid cycling. Do you have a check valve on the surface before the tank?

If I would have answered you last night I would have told you no it doesn't get up to pressure... it was stalling out at about 50psi and stayed there after several minutes of running, so I turned it off. however this morning it actually went to 60psi and turned itself off after about 3 minutes which is about 2 or 3 times slower than it was doing at first. It held the 50 psi pressure last night and is holding the 60 psi pressure now. I have a check valve about 10 inches before the water goes in the tank.

Most pumps have a check valve in or near them down in the well. If yours does, adding a secondary one can cause problems. Do a search here on checkvalves to see some of the discussions. A second one can cause excessive pressure buildup for an instant and split pipes and fittings.

My Slovak Uncle who we called 'Ball pein' tapped around on any mechanism acting up with a hammer, wiggled things and turned anything possible just a little bit. Cursed the machine and threatened it with the scrap yard. He was often rewarded with a repair. I see this myself over and over again. Do machines have souls?

We only put one check valve in. It sounds like uncle Ball pein was a man way ahead of his time. Although I don't know how he would cope in today's world... plastic has an entirely different ring to it when tapped upon with a hammer. Yet I feel he was way ahead of most of us in recognizing that machines do indeed have souls... and in understanding the necessity of communicating with this "machine" that you created or bought at the hardware store... with love if possible, but as your uncle did, in harsher terms when the machine's behavior warrants it. I have used most of the 4 letter words I know, yet my vocabulary is limited.. I wish you would ask if he had any special words (maybe in Slovakian) that worked most effectively for him. that is if uncle B.P. is still alive.

cohcko said:

If I would have answered you last night I would have told you no it doesn't get up to pressure... it was stalling out at about 50psi and stayed there after several minutes of running, so I turned it off. however this morning it actually went to 60psi and turned itself off after about 3 minutes which is about 2 or 3 times slower than it was doing at first. It held the 50 psi pressure last night and is holding the 60 psi pressure now. I have a check valve about 10 inches before the water goes in the tank.

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If you have a check valve at the pressure tank, that is a mistake. Espec on a new installation. Submersible pumps have built in check valves, and if any loosened debris was stirred up during installation, and lodged the check valve in the pump even briefly, the check valve at your pressure tank would hold the pressure from there on into the house. The piping from this check valve backwards into your well pump would lose pressure, and when the pump started, the shock of no pressure suddenly colliding with pressure may have either burst the pipe in the well, or between the well and tank, or blown the o-ring on your pitless adapter. My guess with the black piping would be a split somewhere at a fitting or clamp. It still amazes me how many well men and pump guys install a check valve at the tank, when the diagrams in almost every installation manual shows check valves and snifters being used on old style galvanized tank/air control setups only. They are a necessity there because a certain amount of drainage is needed to introduce a charge of air, but they only cause trouble otherwise.

Check for a Leak

Your symptoms sound a lot like a leak down in the well.

A 5GS07 delivers 400 ft of head at 4.6 GPM, and 520 ft at 1 GPM. It delivers 270 ft of head at 6.5 GPM. And Goulds pumps usually put out a little more than their rating.

That means that at 6.5 GPM you will have about 120 psi between the pump and the top of the water in your well. Is your pipe rated at 100 psi or 160 psi?

Do you have a cycle stop valve? If you have a cycle stop valve, then you are putting more than 200 psi on the pipe when it is throttling the flow.

If you bypass the check valve at the inlet of the tank, you will soon find out if you have a leak in the pipe from the well. The tank will not maintain pressure if there is no check valve and a leak in the pipe from the well.

Thanks for all the good input. The well is 170ft, pump set at 160ft, and the top of the water is around 60-70ft. The pipe is 160psi. Don't have a cycle stop valve in the system. The goulds manual recommends a check valve on captive air pressure tanks... at the tank on installations with well seals or well pits... just below the pitless adapter if your system has one of those. I have a pitless adapter but it is only about 15 ft from the tank so I put it at the tank cause I didn't think 15ft would make a lot of difference. The pitless adapter is solid brass , just connects the 1 in well pipe to the house piping, the o-ring just seals the 6in top casing from letting any dirt enter, no pressure on o-ring. From Gould's manual "2.7 CHECK VALVES Our pumps use four different style check valves. We recommend check valves as they prevent back spinning the pump and motor which will cause premature bearing wear. Check valves also prevent water hammer and upthrust damage. Check valves should be installed every 200'-250' in the vertical discharge pipe" I also see the Goulds pump has a check valve. And I sure don't have 200' to 250' of well, let alone verticle pipe. So is any kind of check valve really necessary 60-70ft above the water level? Sure smells like some kind of leak in the well... or a pump problem .. can't think of a lot else. In either case I'd have to look at the bottom end of my system. Is there any value to a check valve at the tank??? or just a mistake??

Goulds makes the pump so I won't argue with them regarding the need for check valves. It appears that it is not required to meet their 200 ft spacing standard.

You can check the integrity of the down pipe if you can bypass the check valve to put tank pressure against the check valve in the pump.

Seems like you said the next day it went to 60 again. If that's the case, I tend to think your well is not keeping up with the useage.

I don't like the check valve at the tank either.

Next time the pump is running, go out and put your ear to the top of the pitless adaptor. Remember what it shounds like. Then listen next time it stops pumping. If you hear the motor running which will sound more metallic (for a lack of a better word) your water level has probably drawn down to the pump.

bob...

cohcko said:

From Gould's manual "2.7 CHECK VALVES Our pumps use four different style check valves. We recommend check valves as they prevent back spinning the pump and motor which will cause premature bearing wear. Check valves also prevent water hammer and upthrust damage. Check valves should be installed every 200'-250' in the vertical discharge pipe" I also see the Goulds pump has a check valve. And I sure don't have 200' to 250' of well, let alone verticle pipe. So is any kind of check valve really necessary 60-70ft above the water level? ?

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Hi
I have a Goulds pump, 1 HP, 10 gpm that was put in in 1993. My well is shared with 3 houses, and is always used heavily. After construction of my house to satisfy my construction loan, and the county, everything was inspected twice even. The well guy had put a check valve and a shutoff valve at the pressure tank (which is a burried tank, if this makes a diff) and I was told by plumber and inspector that both should be removed, so they were. My only check valve is the one in the pump, which is 250 feet down the well, and the closest house to the well is mine, which is about 300 feet from the well. I was told by several pump pros, and by goulds customer service that there should never be a check valve between pump and tank with a captive air tank. From reading your post, gould said "in the verticle discharge pipe every 200-250 feet. The verticle discharge pipe is the pipe in your well, not the pipe at the tank. Hope this helps.
Rob