Sewer Gas in Shower

here is a process that may help

kim,

glad you are back.

i do agree with you fundamentally (as you just described above) that the previous owners must have made some attempt, and that even the builders must have been made aware of this. Most likely.

I want to suggest an approach, that will be beyond all reproach.

First, before i do so, i do encourage you to contact a couple lawyers and show them this thread, since you have managed to put it all down in writing so far.

Here is the approach: You contact a couple college professors, and ask them to help you define a scientific diagnostic approach to a problem that has no obivious hypothesis that has worked so far. You use the scientific, methodical approach to trial-and-error problems that occur when people have no first hypothesis to suggest resolving it. This means you make a grid, outlining all possible permutations and combinations, and you record the outcomes. Whether you share it with us is not the issue.

You have: sinks, tub, shower, toilet. Each has a P-trap (you can see the P-trap, and you can verify with a little physical probing). Assuming P-traps exist, the next step is -- in my mind -- that you block these P-traps and open only one at a time, and verify the following: What produces the gas smell, how much water, and when. Some will say that this information is too much and not necessary, but i say that it is now necessary since you have tried many other options that did not work.

I.e.
Here is an example, a "for-instance", an illustration, of what a report could look like:
- Opening only one P-trap at a time, while keeping all others blocked:
- sink p-trap: smell - never.
- toilet p-trap: smell - never.
- tub p-trap: smell - never.
- shower p-trap: smell - only after..... xxx quantity of water at xxyxy rate.

nonetheless, do the tests. Even if we think we know the answers in advance. One result or another might provide surprising information. and it might help resolve this.

You can also have verified that only one P-trap is in the line down to the drain, and not two P-traps in series, for any one item.

hope this helps.
My idea of getting a college professor involved is to help you remain focussed on the "scientific" process and not to cut corners. Also to help a real live person coaching you instead of an internet person.

David

Don't use just any professor...

A professor of English Lit would probably be a bad choice. I'd try the local trade school(s) and get somebody who for-sure knows about plumbing. He or she might even assign the problem to an advanced class, which would expose them to real-world problems, generate the methodical approach David advocates, possibly provide cheap labor to investigate on-site, and maybe even arrive at a solution.

toolaholic said:

Kim daughter #3 owns a plumbing and heating co in wash. state with Her husband. I 'm in n. ca. I love to have them call Dad with house questions. If you're near me,send a p.m.

Casman, ask the plaintiff in Maryland why folks don't care for lawers.

Click to expand...

Huh? I don't know anyone from Maryland. You made the statement, I was just curious why you don't like Lawers. Been sued? Know someone that has been sued etc.?

Hello - I'm back!!

Just thought I would update you on the house from hell!
The newest findings are as follows:

1. I finally had my plumber bring his friend to my house and this guy had a nose even better than mine. ( I didn't think that was possible) Thank God he could smell the stinch. I was beginning to think I was crazy. He is concerned that it might be getting into the air system? Doesn't sound good to me - if you read about an explosion in Texas related to sewer gas - you can say "I knew that poor woman!"

2. He had a camera with a locator on the end of it. I told them not to leave my house until they knew where every single drain pipe and fitting was in my house. They recorded every inch of pipe under my house. Here is what they found:

My pipes are sloped too far and draining too fast (siphoning shower trap) AND there are places where they are not sloped AT ALL or sloping backwards! There was a nice formation of poop adhered to my pipes on the OPPOSITE side of the house from the toilets. NICE! I would not believe it if I hadn't seen it with my own eyes. The plumber who did my house is definately a crack head!!!

Now, they are suggesting attorneys, law suits, etc. The cost will be unbelievable, not to mention the fact that we will have to move the 7 year old, dog, 2 cats, fish, etc. out of the house and into a rental (at our expense). We have been here 5 months and we get to move again.

You know, we saved for a long time to be able to afford a "nice" house in a "nice" neighborhood. What a joke! The "nice" people in this neighborhood just screwed us with about $80,000 worth of damage! With all of our money tied up in this house, we will go back to living like we were in college - with an extra person and various animals!

People like that should not be allowed to reproduce ( they have 3 kids who will no doubt grow up to be just like their daddy). Enough ranting.

Does anyone have any comments or suggestions about where we should go from here (besides jail for killing Mr. Nice)?

Now that you know where every pipe and fitting is, I'm sure everyone who's followed this thread would love to see a diagram of it all. The shower trap being siphoned probably isn't properly vented, so there may be some missing pipes and fittings as well. You need a forensic plumber, among the other high-dollar professionals you'll be meeting soon.

I'm beginning to think you may have other structural problems as well; the new overhead plumbing and the weird sloping DWV system suggest (possibly) some settling beneath the slab that may have been repaired by foam or grout injection. I sat on a jury a while back in a trial where a new homeowner's home was settling badly. He mentioned this in a bar one night, and the guy next to him said something like: "You live in the old Smith house? Ain't no way that house is settling, what with all the concrete they pumped under it!" Turns out the previous homeowner had neglected to disclose the presence of a major sinkhole under the house, which led to this fascinating trial.

I hope you don't live in sinkhole country...

Keep us posted!

Good to know!

kim, thank you for posting all this. glad you told us.

sounds to me that the backwards slope is sufficiently serious that it caused the pipe to act as another P-trap, all by itself. A low spot can act as a second P-trap when the pipes are real full of water flowing along a certain length, like when the shower runs. Two P-traps in a row can suck the first one dry; then, when the water runs out of the local low spot (second "P-trap"), it lets bad air rise. Does this make sense?

Was there any standing water in the low spot seen in the camera?

David

Mikey-

What happened to the people in the trial? Did they have to buy the house back from them? It seems to me that if they don't disclose it, they should be responsible. But, if they have no money can it go back to the builder?

David -

There was a lot of water sitting in the pipe. The washer and kitchen are on the extreme left side of the house. The three bathrooms are on the extreme right side of the house. The slope should send waste from the kitchen side through house and out through the master bath at the exct opposite side. The bathroom waste is running and collecting at the kitchen side ( oposite of where it should flow). It just sits there. Nasty, dirty, contaminated water showed up on the camera.

A triumph of law over justice...

...as the judge said. It's a longish story, but the bottom line was the plaintiff's attorney presented a damning case, and we were ready to hang the previous owner and his Realtor. Then the plaintiff's attorney presented his request for remedy; the judge looked at him, then looked at the ceiling, and asked the bailiff to take us (the jury) out of the room. A half-hour or so later, the judge came into the jury room (alone) and explained what had happened. There was no question that the previous owner and his Realtor and his attorney were all scumbags, but Florida law only allows for certain remedies in cases such as this, and the plaintiff's lawyer asked for something else. Thus the judge had no option but to dismiss the case. The moral, I guess, is obvious -- get a lawyer who really knows the law in cases like this.

I wonder if the left side of the house is now lower than the right side... they make a very precise measuring device to determine a slab's profile to within a couple of millimeters over 100' or so, but the manufacturer's name escapes me. I'll try to find it tonight when I get home. Any good engineering firm should be able to determine your slab's profile, and if it isn't damn near level, then your lawyer will be anxious to find out why it isn't.

What part of the country are you located in?

Mikey,

So, you're telling me that they pretty much won the case - but, because they asked for the wrong damages or reward, the case was dismissed?
That would be devastating.

I live in Texas. I think my attorney is pretty good - he seems to know his stuff. Young but very aggressive. He's got a partner in the firm that has been around the block, too.
Wish me luck - it's a long road ahead.

Quick question - do you think the gas can still get into the air vents if the smell only seemed to be coming from one shower while in use? We aren't using the shower and I don't think I smell it. Is there a test you can have done to be sure it's safe to live here?

You've got it right -- as the judge said, a triumph of law over justice. I think the plaintiff probably had a good malpractice case he could have brought, but I haven't heard any more about it -- it happened a few years ago. It was devastating, with a lot more lost than just a half-million bucks or so.

As for gas getting into the air vents, my layman's opinion is that if you can smell it, it's in the air, and in the vents. Bathrooms typically don't have return air vents however, so the parcel of smelly air will be pretty diluted by the time it's circulated throughout the house. Since you've determined that using the shower is the cause, and you're not using the shower, and can't smell anything, you're probably OK. I'd probably slather some duct tape over the shower drain to keep the "drain monster" at bay. You could buy a canary to be sure .

Don't know of any specific air-quality tests you could have done (other than the canary), but some real experts here may have some thoughts in that area.

Good luck... and do keep us posted.

Mike

Is it really 80k?

Just curious. If the problem is piping inside the house, can it really cost 80k to remove and replumb the entire dwv system? How big is the house? How many fixtures are we talking about? Does it all need to go?

Hey, what's a forensic plumber, by the way? I didn't really get to read this thread that closely, but it seems that the problem is improperly sloped pipe that is siphoning the shower trap. Am I wrong?

It is more than one wrong sloped pipe. It is the entire house. Read back through it will make more sense. The plumbing is under the slab and the entire thing is like a rollercoaster (as the plumber described it). It is a 3200 sq ft house with three bathrooms ( all affected by the improper slope). Some places are too sloped - some are not sloped at all.

Like I said a month ago

Call a realestate lawer ! There's a chance an insurance co. of one or more

of the responsible may pick up the tab.

Done!

Attorney's on it. I hope its not like pulling teeth to get to that "responsible" party. Although, you did say insurance company!!

Mikey said:

As for gas getting into the air vents, my layman's opinion is that if you can smell it, it's in the air, and in the vents. Bathrooms typically don't have return air vents however, so the parcel of smelly air will be pretty diluted by the time it's circulated throughout the house.

Click to expand...

If your contribution to the air distribution pollution is only dilution, seek a better solution to your clean air restitution!

you have no way of knowing any and all insurance coverage

by the responsible partys. which may be gen. contr, plumbing contr.,
previous owners, realestate co. house insp. , building dept. that signed this off.A lawers letter to all these folks will ferret out the ins. and bond carriers.

Have you gotten any good results in your approach so far?

good luck, You and your family don't deserve this !