cistern/ spring water system for house

Hi. I am trying to understand how to best put together a water system for my house on our property. I am in the process of building our small house right now and don't have pressurized water.

Currently, I have a 5000 gallon cistern installed. Cistern is approximately 58" in height (58 inches of water height). It is filled via a rain water catchment off of the garage roof (which goes through a filter before entering the cistern). I have a 1 1/4" black plastic water line from the cistern to the house.

Here is what I would like to do:

1) Install a submersible pump in the cistern and pressurize a bladder tank inside the house (utility room where pipe goes into house). I would like this as opposed to a jet pump because of the noise associated with a jet pump, also a positive by-product of this is that a submersible (inside the cistern) would be more efficient.

How do I do this? The cistern is approximately 9 feet below where the pipe comes up in the utility room (9 feet of head rise). It is about 90 feet horizontally from cistern to house. I am also concerned that the pump be protected against a low water situation.

2) I have a small year round spring on my property about 75 feet vertically down from the cistern area and 300 feet horizontally away. I am going to develop the spring to where it will slowly fill a small underground spherical cistern (300 gallon) and then pump up to the cistern when it is full. I am thinking I need to install a submersible in that small cistern (from spring) as well in order to pump up to the cistern. Additionally, that lower submersible pump I think would need to be controlled by a float switch inside that lower cistern but also controlled by a float switch in the large cistern up top so that it only pumps up to the cistern when both float switches are satisfied.

I have never done this before and would really appreciate some feedback as far as if this sounds like a feasible plan? Do i need to keep the submersible pump vertical in both cisterns? How about sizing of these pumps? A uncle (a plumber) suggested that since the submersible in the large cistern that would supply the house does not have enough water head above it and recommended talking to a pump professional - that is why i am posting here.

Thanks in advance for all suggestions and comments.

Scott

I have installed submersibles in tanks and lakes with no problem regarding suction head.

Most are installed vertical, although some of my customers have installed them nearly horizontal in lakes (pointed up about 30 degrees from horizontal) and have not had problems. I would check with the manufacturer's technical department for their recommendation.

You need three float switches and one pressure switch to control your system. Each of the float switches will be connected to a relay. The relays will be connected to operate the pumps.
1. Lower cistern float switch will have a range of operation and will pump when water is available AND when the upper cistern is calling for water.
2. Upper cistern float switch will enable pumping when the cistern is not full.
3. Upper cistern - a "low level" switch will prevent the pump in that tank from pumping if the water is low.
4. Pressure switch will control your pressure tank pump, subject to the "low level" protection.

The relays will all fit in an 8x8x4" box. I recently installed a small system where I put the relays in a 12-circuit sub-panel with circuit breakers for disconnecting the pumps. I find that GE panels are inexpensive at HD.

Logic:
1. When the upper cistern is not full AND the lower cistern has water; operate the pump in the lower cistern. Low water in the lower OR full upper will shut off the pump.

2. When the pressure is low AND the "low level" switch is NOT LOW the pump in the large cistern will pump to the pressure tank.

The logic is simple; don't be intimidated by it. I can send you a parts list and a schematic if you need them.

It is possible to omit the relays but then you need high current float switches. The relays are not expensive and it is much easier to change the logic if something changes.

Runoff from a roof, and water from an open spring, should be filtered and disinfected. I installed a system that filters rain water from roofs for a small island community in Maine. The were getting sea gull crap in the water and it was growing algae in the tanks. They were not thinking about it until someone saw the stuff in the tanks and observed the sea gulls on the ridge of the building from which they were collecting water.

A good filter will remove suspended solids, giardia, and cryptosporidium; and 1 mg/liter of chlorine will easily kill viruses and most bacteria.

The submersible pumps are quieter and more efficient. However, a rainwater collection system is probably not going to produce enough water where the efficiency matters. Jet pumps are less expensive and you will be able to pump down your 5000 gallon tank if required. They are also simpler to install.

See this thread:
https://terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7017

BobNH, 1 ppm or mg/l of chlorine is not sufficient to treat surface water, especially for viruses. A .2 to 1.5 ppm or mg/l of Free chlorine is. Or he could use a correctly sized simple Class A UV light with proper pretreatment if needed.

And how's come you didn't tell those island folks about, and protect them from, the possibilities of gulls etc.? You say you installed the system, and I suspect you designed or specked it out to sell it to them...

The state water people suggest that people call me when they have no alternative. I design each system to use what they have and to add what is necessary to meet the requirements of the EPA Surface Water Treatment Rule. I procure equipment or help them procure it, and work with them to get it installed and operating.

You won't find me in the yellow pages or on a web site. I am not waiting for business and don't need it. I'm retired and do these systems when I am called. Of course I get paid for my work.

A recent system resulted when a residential camp on a lake pumped their shallow well dry, spent more than $10,000 on dry holes trying to get a deep well, and were finally told by the state to call me. They now have a filtration and disinfection system that produces 15,000 gallons per day, and it cost them less than they spent on dry holes.

The requirements are to remove or kill 99.9% of giardia (3 Log removal or inactivation), remove 99% of cryptosporidium, kill 99.99% of viruses, and to never have a positive coliform test.

The Harmsco filter that I have been using is credited with 2.5 Log (99.7%) removal of giardia, and disinfection is required to achieve the balance to get to 99.9%. The filter actually removes more than 99.9% but the state wants to ensure a minimum of disinfection to take care of viruses and bacteria.

The crypto is not reliably killed by chlorine and the 99% requirement is met by the filter.

The chlorination requirement is specified by the EPA Guidance Manual. The required chlorine concentration depends on the water temperature, pH, and contact time. They will not accept UV for disinfection in these small systems because they require something that can be measured, and require a residual in the delivered water.

The operators must measure peak hour flow rate, turbidity, pH, temperature, and chlorine concentration daily, and must make a calculation to show that the required disinfection is being performed.

I have installed two systems in Latin American countries. They know what it means when the "Agua man" takes a big drink of the water from the system he just installed.

Hi Bob,

Thanks for all the information. The relays seem like a great idea and not a problem. Do they sell 12 volt float switches that I would use to energize the relays?

Also, what is the difficult part about installing submersibles in a cistern?

And, I take it I would run 2 sets of relay wires to the upper cistern, 1 set to the lower cistern, and then a set of power wires to each pump all coming to the house where I would do my hookups, logic, etc.

Also I am wondering is UV light protection reliable? I have checked into chlorinator system but I do NOT have the necessary room for the equipment.
They were talking about (2) 40 gallon tanks side by side or something....Kinetico Water systems was the company...said I needed at least 6 by 6 foot area.

Also, I understand if you don't want to but I was wondering if I could get your phone number in case there is further questions I have.

My email address is Scott@hallshomeimprovements.com

Thanks again,

Scott

You can buy 120 or 230v float switches at most pump and/or plumbing supply houses. They are used every day all over the US, so they are considered a standard piece of equipment. Going to 12vdc is out of the norm and not needed.

UV is approved by the EPA and the majority of states. It has been used for decades. And if you check the county/state rules, I'll bet they can't deny it's use. I proved that to the PA DEP years ago but the folks you talk to will tell you no, until you read their regs to them and ask them for their decision in writing.

Anyway, my point about the chlorine was the 1 ppm or mg/l dose that was mentioned. That is not sufficient.

There are chlorination systems that do not require the large retention tanks and that don't use solution feeders. I sell them and they take up less than 3' along the wall x 2' out from the wall and are totally free of any moving parts while being non-electric.

I agree with avoiding 12 volt float switches. With this setup, you would have to add a transformer/power supply, and relays which is extra components to fail. If possible, I would use a sub pump in the spring supply, and a jet pump on the cistern supply, even if you have to build a "doghouse" for the pump. The small amount of noise would be a worthwhile trade off. You can use a sub in the cistern, but make sure it is angled slightly. Dont run a sub laying horizontal! Your stack can float back and forth from the top to the bottom of the pump, creating a sort of upthrust type failure in the pump. 30 degree sounds reasonable for a sub pump.