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Thread: How to remove deep well cap?

  1. #16

    Default How to remove deep well cap?

    Hi Guys! You are all my heroes!!

    Good news! I took your advice and worked the pump up and down while turning it. It gradually came a few inches higher each time and has come up about 15 feet so far. Every once in a while it jams again, but letting it back a little each time and working it seems to get the blockage cleared up. Hopefully tomorrow I will get it out completely, barring any unforeseen surprises.

    The well is 4" inside diameter and the pipe is a black PVC? About 8' down there was a heavy cast iron threaded coupling with a brass plug on one side. The brass plug has a small ~1/16" hole in the middle (Do you know why it is of such heavy construction and why the hole?) The plastic pipes were screwed into it. Further on down was a typical PVC coupling about 2 1/2" long with lots of contact surface. There are no hose clamps so far.

    As for digging a well at 75 years old - 2 Advil tablets in the morning sure helps to keep the arthritus pains at bay <GG>.

    I phoned the well driller about a week ago and left a message saying I needed a 6' length of casing, a pitless connector and some other parts to restore the well. No call back yet. Now I may have a problem getting the parts. .

    Thanks oh-so-much for your help - you guys are great!
    Fred

  2. #17
    In the Trades Bob NH's Avatar
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    The hole in the brass plug may be part of an air injection system. You may find another one a ways down the pipe. It might have a little plastic ball in the plug that will work like a check valve. They were used in the days before bladder tanks.

    I don't know if a pitless adapter will fit in a 4" casing. You might want to make it 6" when you weld the top section on.

    You might find a scrap yard that will have a piece of 4", 5", or 6" schedule 40 steel pipe. If you are really lucky they might have a concentric reducer with weld ends. Since there is no pressure in the casing you could just use a piece of steel plate to adapt the two sizes. You will want to be sure you don't get any weld material in the 4" diameter to reduce the clearance for the pump.

    Check www.grainger.com for Stock No. 5YM17 for a pitless adapter. I think that one will also fit a 5" casing. Try to get a Grainger catalog from some business friend. They also have things like pressure gauges for about $4.

    The black PVC may be a dark gray. That usually is Schedule 80. It may be worth saving if you can unscrew it while it comes up.

  3. #18
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    Some of us sell pitless adaptors among other things. If you want to spend the money, they make weld on pitless adaptors that would take the work out of building your own.

    If you want to use a kit and build your own, you can use a piece of 4" SCH 40 PVC and use a 4" compression coupling which I can also provide that will make the connection underground. It's much more sanitary than that well seal you had.

    bob...

  4. #19
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Your black pipe could be PE (polyeythlene) tubing but there should be hose clamps on its insert/barbed fittings. If not it might be the first sch 40 ABS plastic pipe and it has cemented fittings and it is stiff and thin walled in up to 20' lengths. It breaks very easily if you bend it.

    I wouldn't attempt to weld casing together, I'd use a Fernco fitting and a piece of 4" or 6" sch 40 pipe and a regular well casing cap. Here in PA we use that set up and it works better than steel. As to the pitless, there are 4" available. Due to the depth of your casing, I suggest 6" PVC and put a pitless for 6" casing in it below the frost line and be done with it. I've done it more than a few times. Here's what it looks like when done. IIRC, the casing was 5"+, not 6".
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  5. #20

    Default How to remove deep well cap?

    Thanks to all you fellow's guidance I am delirously happy to report the pump is finally pulled!

    The well is 116' deep and the water depth is 33 feet. The 1" black plastic down pipe measured 100' long, in 20' lengths, connected with cemented plastic couplings - no clamps - must be PE. For a torque convertor there was a foam 4" diameter ring about 1" thick slipped over the pipe just above the Goulds pump. Re:The "heavy iron coupling" - as you suspected the brass plug does have a spring-loaded ball valve under it.

    Now I have to get all the materials together and start the installation. Your suggestion to extend the casing with 6" plastic pipe instead of iron will sure make the job a lot easier! The Reduced Pressure Zone Backflow Preventor is quite expensive so I may just disconnect the city supply pipe. Would putting two 3/4" check valves in series suffice for this function?

    If you like I'll keep you posted on the progress.

    Best regards,
    Fred

  6. #21
    In the Trades Bob NH's Avatar
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    http://www.epa.gov/safewater/pdfs/cr.../chapter02.pdf

    Here are some cases that illustrate why water utilities are so sensitive about possible cross connections.

    You can ask but I suspect that the city will not accept anything less than an RPZBP.

    You can go to www.grainger.com and search on reduced zone backflow to get prices. You will be able to get on for less than $200.

  7. #22
    I&C Engineer (mostly WWTP) Lakee911's Avatar
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    That's a good read. Why all the hype about increased security at water treatment plants? Just hook up a pump to your local faucet and pump in your favorite bio-lethal chemical.

  8. #23

    Default How to remove deep well cap?

    Here's the latest on my well resurrection project . .

    I followed much of the advice given here. As recommended installed a 6" PVC extension to the original 4" casing and brought the casing above ground. This was sure a lot easier than welding a steel extension. also installed a pitless connector about 5' down. Made a 1" pipe T-bar tool to link the pitless connection down inside the pipe.

    Should have listened to your advice and bought a NEW pump. I made up a working pump from two used Goulds - the motor from one, and the pump unit from the other. The unit bench-tested OK but the motor went dead down in the well.

    So I pulled and replaced it with a new pump. Now the new one is stuck 80' down, with another 25' to go. The old pumps jammed a number of times while pulling or installing them, but nothing like this one. The new pump is really hung up solid (aaarrggghhh) - may have to send a stick of dynamite down. I'm rigging a miniature IR camera to drop down and look at the obstruction. Hopefully the images will be visible so they can be recorded on a VCR and viewed on TV. With my luck the camera will get snagged on the safety rope or cable and join the pump in Davey Jone's locker.

    Well, that's where I'm at now. Have over $500 invested so far and a formidable challenge ahead. . .fun ... fun ...

    Fred

  9. #24
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    If you ever get this bad motor out Fred, you might want to consider a 3" submersible pump. Myers and Grundfos both make one. They don't get snagged on bad joints like the 4" pumps do. They are more expensive, but a better idea than a new well.

    By the way, I don't know if I mentioned it before, but that rope you tied to the pump is a joke. It won't pull as much as the pipe you hung the pump on and is something to fall into the well and tie up the pump.

    bob...

  10. #25
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Your original drop pipe.... PE can not be 'glued' so it wasn't PE. It sounds like that first ever sch 40 plastic I mentioned; ABS IPS thin walled plastic from the 1960s.

    I would have used PE for the new drop pipe, it bends nicely in wells that twist 'n turn where 10-20' sectional PVC won't and the couplings help to hang it up in the well.

    I would not use rope. It does nothing but give a false sense of security and can hang ya up in the well.

    I would not use any type of torque arrestor in a well that hung up the pump I was replacing...

    I'd do my best to pull this pump and get rid of any rope and arrestor if you used either. I might change to PE tubing if you used PVC. The other thing to think about is to not put it down the well as far. You have maybe 50' of water over the pump when it's at 80' so it depends on how much water you use at one time and the recovery rate of the well. You can also find a 3" pump. No dyNOmite though...
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  11. #26

    Default How to remove deep well cap?

    "If you ever get this bad motor out Fred, you might want to consider a 3" submersible pump."

    >>>>Too late - the pump that's stuck is a new Ace/Franklin I just bought from Lowe's.

    "rope you tied to the pump is a joke"

    >>>Too late - I used 3/8" rope rated at I think near 200 lb. The pump had only a 1/4" hole for the rope so I made a stainless steel collar with a 3/8" hole.

    ".. sounds like that first ever sch 40 plastic I mentioned; ABS IPS thin walled plastic from the 1960s."

    >>>You're probably right. The house was built in the early 60s.


    " . ..I'd do my best to pull this pump and get rid of any rope and arrestor if you used either."

    >>>Yes, I also installed one of those expandable torque arrestors. I left the upper clamp just loose enough so the thing could slide a little. It's probably expanding when I pull up and jamming against the barnacles in the casing!!


    " . . change to PE tubing if you used PVC. The other thing to think about is to not put it down the well as far. You have maybe 50' of water over the pump when it's at 80' so it depends on how much water you use at one time and the recovery rate of the well."

    >>>I used a 100' coil of 1" black tubing from HD. The pump is jammed at a level where there is not enough water to keep it submerged. I ran the pump in a few short spurts to see if it worked and you could hear the sucking noise when the water dropped below the pump intake. I previously measured the water depth at 33'.

    >>>I have the camera water-proofed so it works underwater, but your messages make me realize I cannot get the camera past that &&^##**@@ torque arrestor!! aaarrgghhh again - woe is me

    Fred - gonna go bury head in sand

  12. #27
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    You even bought your pump at the wrong place Fred. Sounds like a cluster **** all the way around. At least you will know better next time.

    I'm sorry you used the torque arrestor, that will make it difficult if not impossible to beat down on the top of the pump's discharge end.

    What PSI poly pipe did you use?

    bob...

  13. #28

    Default How to remove deep well cap?

    Bob,

    "You even bought your pump at the wrong place Fred. Sounds like a cluster **** all the way around. At least you will know better next time."

    >>>>>I didn't do much right beyond digging the hole and finding the casing location - that's what inexperience does. I'm afraid there won't be a next time for me. If it weren't for all you guys' help I would have screwed up a lot more, if that's possible. BTW where would have been the right place to buy the pump?

    "I'm sorry you used the torque arrestor, that will make it difficult if not impossible to beat down on the top of the pump's discharge end."

    >>>I plan as a last resort, to pull until the pump frees up or the rope/pipe and cable break. Nothing to lose that hasn't already been lost.

    What PSI poly pipe did you use?
    >>>100 PSI.

    Fred

  14. #29
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    The 100 psi is a bit light IMO. I would have used 160.

    If you are pulling on the rope, don't, that will cock the pump into the casing.

    You messed up leaving the top clamp loose on the arrestor. I would make myself a pointy end hook of say 3/8" rod on 1/4" rope that should/could catch in the torque arrestor and fish for it and then attempt to hold it taught as I pulled on the drop pipe. Meaning pull the arrestor up to get it off the casing.

    I don't know but this sounds kinda terminal... if there's anyone in this thread that mentioned using a rope and/or arrestor, send'em the bill.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  15. #30
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    You may get lucky, I once pulled on a submersible pump hung on Poly 160 Psi. I stretched it apprx 12 feet above the well. The pump never moved and the rig stalled. It was an old friction rig so I have no way of knowing how many tons I was lifting, but that old rig was pretty tough and the poly won.

    bob...

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