Need forum recommendatio-- building a fence

I know there are folks here who could tell me everything I need to know to build 48' of shadow-box fence, but I don't see an appropriate place to ask.
So, can anyone recommend a forum of the quality of this one in which such a question can be thoroughly addressed?
Thanks!
Howard, Chicago

I would say that this is an apropriate place as any to ask. I mean, hey, you're remodeling you're backyard, eh?

I've got an older house, so sometimes I use the message board at http://www.oldhouseweb.com/ It's more general info than technical info though.

Jason

Thanks!
I've never done anything remotely like this before.
I want to install a 5-foot tall, 48-foot fence.
I am leaning heavily towards evenly offset shadowbox using 6" dogear pickets, 8' 2x4 rails (3 rows), and 4x4 posts.

My first big question has to do with how to set the posts. Someone on another forum is trying to convince me I'm better off with gravel than concrete.
Would be interested in any thoughts on that . . .

You can really go either way. Some would say that setting it IN concrete would allow water to get in and sit in the hole around the wood. This could do damage to the post (rot) or concrete (crack in winter).

If you've got nice firm soil, I would dig your hole below frost line and tamp it down and pour a little mixxed aggregate sized gravel (couple inches deep) and tamp it again. Set your post on this and then backfill, tamping every 4 or 5 inches.

If you want to go concrete, dig your hole, pour a litttle concrete and level it out and let this set. Then put your post on that, fill in a few inches of gravel and then fill the rest with concrete, slopping the top away from the post. If any water does find its way in between the wood and the concrete it will seep out through the gravel. I think this is over kill for a fence, IMHO. Well, maybe around a gate you could do this to make it extra stable.

Jason

Thanks Jason!

I read your response right away but didn't have a chance to respond.
What exactly does "aggregate sized gravel" mean?
How do I determine where the frost line is? (presumably it's the same as yours-- I'm in Chicago).
The gravel would actually make things easier if I were to skip the concrete entirely, since there's a supply place a few blocks away that would deliver it for free for purchase over $100.
Any idea about how much I'd need for 7 posts? The holes are probably going to be on the large side since I don't think I can get around reusing some pre-existing holes that were created 2 weeks ago when I dug out 3 old posts and their deep, deep concrete bases.

Also, how wide is 6" dogear? 5 3/4"
And is a 2x4x8' exactly 8 feet long, or is it less due to milling?
Thx to Jason or anyone for any additional info . . .

"Aggregate sized gravel" is not really defined, but I would use something coarser than sand, mixed gradation meaing from coarse sand to stone, up to about 3/4" stone. Crushed stone is better than rounded gravel because it tends to lock together.

An 8 ft 2x4 is at least 8 ft. If you buy premade rails they will probably be cut to give 8 ft center-to-center of posts. You need to figure out a good rail/post fastening detail if you are not using standard parts. I made some special brackets out of 20 ounce copper when I helped my son put up a fence where the posts are exposed on both sides. They were easy to make, strong, and didn't require drilling.

A 1x6 dogear board is probably 5.25 to 5.5 and will shrink. Measure them where you get them and buy accordingly. Put them up tightly and you will have spaces next year.

If you set the posts first you will want to rip a few to adjust so you don't end up with a narrow board at the end of a section.

Frost depth is probably 3 to 3.5 ft in the Chicago area. Many people use 4 ft for foundations. You will probably consider using inexpensive 8 ft posts for a 5 ft fence. If it is a 6 ft fence you will probably want longer posts.

Concrete is more rigid. Stone/gravel backfill will require some maintenance (straighten and tamp) from time to time.

Consider stainless nails or screws where you need fasteners for the face of the boards. The new pressure treated material is quite corrosive to ordinary steel and thin zinc plating, and plain steel will stain just about any material.

Thanks, Bob!

So do you think I should use concrete rather than gravel?
My plan is to use brackets-- can you say anything about how you made them?
Is this something an average person can do? I'm a bit wary of using copper since it gets stolen in my neighborhood to sell for scrap, even small bits that require a time investment to remove.
The only brackets I'e seen for sale are zinc plated (at Menard's)

I plan to do a 5-foot tall fence, 1:1 offset shadowbox (sounds like I should overlap by 1/2" to allow for shrinkage by your description)?
Posts about 8 feet apart, three rowns of 2x4 rails, brackets and exposed posts. Total length about 48 feet.

What do you think about forming tubes?

Stainless steel screws it is. What would an appropriate length be for 1" Dogear? I don't have access to a nailer. Am I asking for trouble by starting right off with screws? I plan to pre-drill the dogear . . . should I predrill into the 4x4 post as well?

Sorry to need so much handholding-- trying to break from my usual pattern of doing things half-assed for lack of time to plan properly.

Bob NH said:

"Aggregate sized gravel" is not really defined, but I would use something coarser than sand, mixed gradation meaing from coarse sand to stone, up to about 3/4" stone. Crushed stone is better than rounded gravel because it tends to lock together.

An 8 ft 2x4 is at least 8 ft. If you buy premade rails they will probably be cut to give 8 ft center-to-center of posts. You need to figure out a good rail/post fastening detail if you are not using standard parts. I made some special brackets out of 20 ounce copper when I helped my son put up a fence where the posts are exposed on both sides. They were easy to make, strong, and didn't require drilling.

A 1x6 dogear board is probably 5.25 to 5.5 and will shrink. Measure them where you get them and buy accordingly. Put them up tightly and you will have spaces next year.

If you set the posts first you will want to rip a few to adjust so you don't end up with a narrow board at the end of a section.

Frost depth is probably 3 to 3.5 ft in the Chicago area. Many people use 4 ft for foundations. You will probably consider using inexpensive 8 ft posts for a 5 ft fence. If it is a 6 ft fence you will probably want longer posts.

Concrete is more rigid. Stone/gravel backfill will require some maintenance (straighten and tamp) from time to time.

Consider stainless nails or screws where you need fasteners for the face of the boards. The new pressure treated material is quite corrosive to ordinary steel and thin zinc plating, and plain steel will stain just about any material.

Click to expand...

http://www.hooverfence.com/wood/shadowbox-convex.htm

I would use the concrete. With 7 posts that is not too much to mix. Mix it very dry. If the holes are really big you might want to use some concrete at the base and some at the top with gravel in between, but the saving may not be worth the bother. Forming tubes will save some on the concrete if the holes are really big.

I would plan to use stainless ring shank nails on the boards; you shouldn't need screws but could use them. For the number you are doing, you could use a hammer instead of a nailer.

They make some screws for plastic decking that would not be too conspicuous. I find that the "star drive" or square drive screws are much better than the Phillips versions.

You don't need to pre-drill the posts with the brackets that I used. The screws will go right through the copper brackets so you don't need to drill them either. Use hex head screws with points for the brackets. "Drywall" type screws tend to pull through. You will want to use a power driver for those.

The brackets are designed to accommodate slight variations in length. Screw to the rail last. If you use that design, make and test a few before you cut the material for the whole lot.

The roofing nails are not just to keep the bracket in place during installation. The provide the load path for in and out forces on the panel.

The screws into the post should be as close to the corner as you can get them. You can adjust the bracket size to as small as you can work with. The same criterion applies to the rail but you don't want to split the rail ends.

If the picture is not adequate resolution (I had to shrink for file size limits), send me a PM with you EMail and I will send you a better copy.

There are at least a couple of companies that make fiberglass railing and fencing materials. Lifetime finish, various colors, really feels solid (my sister used it for railings and handrails on her deck). Pricey, but not when you figure that you never have to paint them and they won't rot. Worth a look.

I would definately use screws. As the treated material, assuming that is what you're using, dries it will shrink and warp and could pull the nails out slightly. Screws, while they might be a little more expensive, will hold it much better.

Setting the post on concrete and then putting gravel around it with concrete at the surface allows any water that seeps in between the concrete and the post to drain out. It's not trapped in the buckete of concrete. I'd say its worth the bother.

They also make some plastic or vinyl fencing materials. I think they look cheap but they require no maintainance. Using composite decking w/ treated rails and post is another way to go too.

Jason

The vinal stuff tends to warp a little after awhile...the (relatively new) fiberglass stuff (more expensive) shouldn't.

Well, I now have the materials, basically limited to what my local supply centers have.
I have 40 "fence clips" which are like caps on the end of the rails, but screw to the posts first.
I have 2" triple-coated decking screws to hold the clips to the posts.
I have 3/4" triple-coated decking screws to fasten the 2x4's once they're sitting in the clips.
I have 18 pressure treated 2x4x8s, and 6 2x4x10s. I laid some out tonight to determine that I'll only need to use 15 of the 2x4x8, and set 6 posts.
I have 10 4x4x8 posts.
I have 14 50# bags of fast-setting sacrete, the kind that claims you don't have to mix it, just pour in water.

I think what I'll do is set the posts in concrete, then put in a layer of gravel as suggested (unless I find no way to transport that in which case I'll just go ghetto and skip it) and then the top layer over the gravel with be maybe another 12" section of concrete using a forming tube (sound OK?) for a neat appearance on top . . . the posts are going in against a sidewalk that sticks up a few inches over grade, and once this is all done I plan to bring the soil up a bit towards that walk . . which would bury the posts in dirt if not for the additional height of concrete.

Looking for any other tips which might save me headaches-- the kind that this forum is always great for!
-h

BTW-- have not bought pickets yet.
I'm kind of confused that some are labeled 1x6x6, others 5/8x6x6, others 3/4x6x5 1/2, and they all look virtually alike . . .

Also, do I need to stain/laquer pressure treated lumber? My friends did and it looks great, but maybe this is something I can do later?

You can stain the wood after several months. It is better to wait a while. Don't use a finish like lacquer or urethane or varnish.

The difference in dimensions is variable with suppliers. Thicker is better. Select on the basis of straightness and lack of knots, wane, and splits. (Wane is the runout at the edge where it wasn't sawn.)

If your ground is not level, decide if each section is going to follow the slope or be staggered at each post. I think following the slope looks better. The top and bottom rails should be fairly close to the end to control warping. Otherwise, one end will warp one way and one the other to where they are not even.

Set the first two posts to depth but do not backfill. Install the rails (exactly the same length) and them plumb them (this is a plumbing forum ) so they will be vertical in the direction along the fence. Then attach a diagonal brace (top of one to bottom of the next).

Plumb the posts both ways before and as you fill around them. It is almost impossible to move them once they are backfilled.

If you are working alone you will probably want some stakes and braces to hold the posts plumb while you backfill and until the concrete sets up. It is very helpful to have a helper. If you put a diagonal brace between the first two posts when you install them, after the rails are fastened, they will stay plumb in the direction of the fence.

I would install the rails between the posts as each one is set. That helps you get the spacing right and helps support the new post while you work.

Plan whether you are going to cut the posts to height after you install them, or adjust the holes as you set them. The tops of the posts usually have a cap or are cut to a truncated pyramid.

When you put the boards on, use a gauge to hold uniform spacing. Check for plumb. Adjust the spacing so you end up with full width boards at the ends.

Plan sounds good. All kinds of good advice from Bob. I wouldn't worry about the forming tube, but that's me.

Wait to stain. If you want to paint, there is a way to get it done early, but I can't remember the procedure. I can find out if you'd like though. You can also use a clear sealer which is popular too. Let's you keep that nice fresh wood color.

Another tip if you're working alone, and even if you're not. Stretch two strings, one high and one low. If you can get these two perfectly plumb all along then you can set the edge of your posts along these and you'll stay inline (colinear is the term?) and plumb in one direction. They also make a nifty corner mounted level that you slap on there and can optionally pin it in place and check two directions at once. (If you use a high line, make sure you can detach one end or do something to prevent clothes lining yourself and prevent yourself from tripping.

Have you bought or rented a post hole digger yet?

Sure of your property line? Do you need a survey? Would hate for you to build a nice fence and then find out its 6in on your neighbors lot.

Enjoy
Jason

Great info, I'm not worthy.

I've studied my survey, which is from last October, and spoken to the surveyor for clarification.

I've also spoken to the neighbor on that side who's not about cooperation; he tried to tell me the lot line was about a foot into my lot, then tried to tell me the fence has to be a foot away from the property line, which is completely untrue (and would result in anyone over the age of 10 not being able to squeeze between the fence and the garage). Made up a bunch of other stuff too; offered to help and then dissapeared . . . oddly was never able to produce his own survey. I digress.

The fence runs along a sidewalk which is higher than grade and not level.

I plan to find a compromise between grade and sidwalk, and I plan to make the fence one long level line, and then re-level the soil to match. If the straight line of the fence calls out the irregularity of neighbor's sidewalk . . . oh well.

Here's an image:

The survey says the property line is 0.2 feet my side of that sidewalk you see on the right.

Here's a front view if anyone's interested:


Continued . . .

Bob NH said:

You can stain the wood after several months. It is better to wait a while. Don't use a finish like lacquer or urethane or varnish.

The difference in dimensions is variable with suppliers. Thicker is better. Select on the basis of straightness and lack of knots, wane, and splits. (Wane is the runout at the edge where it wasn't sawn.)

Click to expand...

I'm not sure which edge isn't sawn--- aren't they all?

If your ground is not level, decide if each section is going to follow the slope or be staggered at each post. I think following the slope looks better. The top and bottom rails should be fairly close to the end to control warping. Otherwise, one end will warp one way and one the other to where they are not even.

Click to expand...

What do you think: pickets will be cut to 5'. One rail 12" from the bottom, one rail 12" from the top, and one in the middle? Or should I go closer to the edges? And do you think (3) 2x4 rails is overkill for a 5' fence?

Set the first two posts to depth but do not backfill. Install the rails (exactly the same length) and them plumb them (this is a plumbing forum ) so they will be vertical in the direction along the fence. Then attach a diagonal brace (top of one to bottom of the next).
Plumb the posts both ways before and as you fill around them. It is almost impossible to move them once they are backfilled.

Click to expand...

I was kind of planning to use a level. Is that not a good idea? Guess I've never used a plumb line before . . .

If you are working alone you will probably want some stakes and braces to hold the posts plumb while you backfill and until the concrete sets up. It is very helpful to have a helper. If you put a diagonal brace between the first two posts when you install them, after the rails are fastened, they will stay plumb in the direction of the fence.

Click to expand...

Not sure I picture how the diagonal would go . . . I sure hope to have a helper for at least part of this. I bought that fast setting stuff, the kind that you supposedly don't need to mix. Won't the pole be well-positioned as soom as all the mix is in the hole? Or will it have to be nursed while the concrete is setting up?
Also could you spell out "plumb in the direstion of the fence" for my little brain?

I would install the rails between the posts as each one is set. That helps you get the spacing right and helps support the new post while you work.

Click to expand...

Hadn't thought about that. I was thinking of installing the outer posts first
and then running a mason line to get the position of the rest of them.
I will give it more thought . . .

Plan whether you are going to cut the posts to height after you install them, or adjust the holes as you set them. The tops of the posts usually have a cap or are cut to a truncated pyramid.

Click to expand...

Will definitely cut the tops once it's all done. Copper caps won't last long in my neighborhood but I'll find something decorative and relatively uninteresting to theives.[/QUOTE]

When you put the boards on, use a gauge to hold uniform spacing. Check for plumb. Adjust the spacing so you end up with full width boards at the ends.

Click to expand...

Trying to figure out how to calculate that . . . I'm doing shadowbox so that should give some flexibility, no?

Lakee911 said:

Plan sounds good. All kinds of good advice from Bob. I wouldn't worry about the forming tube, but that's me.

Wait to stain. If you want to paint, there is a way to get it done early, but I can't remember the procedure. I can find out if you'd like though. You can also use a clear sealer which is popular too. Let's you keep that nice fresh wood color.

Another tip if you're working alone, and even if you're not. Stretch two strings, one high and one low. If you can get these two perfectly plumb all along then you can set the edge of your posts along these and you'll stay inline (colinear is the term?) and plumb in one direction. They also make a nifty corner mounted level that you slap on there and can optionally pin it in place and check two directions at once. (If you use a high line, make sure you can detach one end or do something to prevent clothes lining yourself and prevent yourself from tripping.

Have you bought or rented a post hole digger yet?

Sure of your property line? Do you need a survey? Would hate for you to build a nice fence and then find out its 6in on your neighbors lot.

Enjoy
Jason

Click to expand...

I think I addressed most of that.
Neighbr on the other side lent me a post hole digger and a very large heavy pick/staff (not sure what to call it). There is a mess of concrete everywhere from bad DIY-ers of the past 35 years, and every hole is full of something un-diggable.

By the way . . . as you can see I've got two projects going at once . . .
plus I think I want to install a brick patio to the bottom left part of the picture.

I'm not sure which edge isn't sawn--- aren't they all?
Wane is where the board wasn't quite wide enough and so the edge isn't square. You want to reject those when buying the boards.

What do you think: pickets will be cut to 5'. One rail 12" from the bottom, one rail 12" from the top, and one in the middle? Or should I go closer to the edges? And do you think (3) 2x4 rails is overkill for a 5' fence?

I would put the top of the top rail and the bottom of the bottom rail about 6" from the end of the board.

I was kind of planning to use a level. Is that not a good idea? Guess I've never used a plumb line before . . .
Plumb refers to the verticality of the post, whether you measure it with a "level" or a plumb line. The longer the level, the better, because the posts will not all be straight.

Not sure I picture how the diagonal would go . . .

The diagonal is a temporary brace nailed to the post face (inside or outside the fence) of the first section where you install the rails. One end of the diagonal goes at the height of the top rail and the other end at the bottom rail on the adjacent post. That will make the two posts and the rails into a rigid frame that will stay plumb in the direction of the fence. It will also hold it crooked if you don't get it right and ONE end of the brace will have to be released to allow adjustment.

I sure hope to have a helper for at least part of this. I bought that fast setting stuff, the kind that you supposedly don't need to mix. Won't the pole be well-positioned as soon as all the mix is in the hole? Or will it have to be nursed while the concrete is setting up?

If you get the post solid, it will not move by itself. But you need to be careful while putting the concrete in the hole to be sure it stays vertical (plumb) until you get it solidly in place.

Also could you spell out "plumb in the direstion of the fence" for my little brain?

If you are standing 40 ft away from the fence looking at it after you are finished, the posts will look vertical if they are "plumb in the direction of the fence". They could tip toward or away from you and would be "plumb in the direction of the fence". You will have them plumb both ways when you are finished.

Hadn't thought about that. I was thinking of installing the outer posts first and then running a mason line to get the position of the rest of them. I will give it more thought . . .

You can install the outer posts first and run a string. But then start from one end and install posts and rails as you go along. Don't try to install all posts and then come along and add the rails. You will have to be very careful about the spacing to come out right at the last space.

Will definitely cut the tops once it's all done. Copper caps won't last long in my neighborhood but I'll find something decorative and relatively uninteresting to thieves.

You can get nicely milled cedar or redwood caps. If you install them with one fastener in the center they will be less likely to split when they shrink.

Trying to figure out how to calculate that . . . I'm doing shadowbox so that should give some flexibility, no?

Guess at a trial number of boards N per your layout and calculate the total width of all the boards in a section. Nxw = W. Subtract that from the total clear distance between posts and divide that answer by the number of spaces you want per your layout (N or N+1 or N-1). Part of the flexibility is that you can have a board at each end, or a space at each end, or a board at one end and a space at the other end. If you want more space between boards, subtract one board or space. If you want less space, add one board or space. Tack one section up and see how you like it. It will make it easier if you work with decimal inches and convert back at the end. An Excel table would be ideal for the calculations. You could use it to calculate the position or each board measured from the post.