New construction - replace toilets?

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DannyDan

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Hi,

We recently moved into a new construction home where the builder installed these toilets:
Sterling Windham Toilet 402081

Unfortunately, these toilets have the occasional clog that is quite annoying. We've already changed our "flushing habits" and try to give every guest the awkward "toilet orientation" before they use the restrooms. These toilets will sometimes clog even after "number two" with no TP (since we adopted the "double flush" technique). Needless to say it's a very embarrassing problem to have. Perhaps we should be eating more fiber? ;)
We don't have children and don't flush anything that isn't toilet safe.

Anyhow, a plumber I spoke with recommended replacing them with Toto toilets. I've done some research and it sounds like these are very good and highly recommended.
My question is, since our toilets are already brand new, what are the odds that replacing them will fix our problem?
Has anyone ever replaced a brand new toilet to address something like this? If so, which model / brand would you recommend? I've been debating between the Toto Drake II and Ultramax II.
 

WJcandee

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That you have to explain to your guests how to use the toilet makes it pretty self-evident that they need to be replaced. New or not, they are not working well enough for you. Often, builders save money by installing inexpensive or poorly-performing toilets. Sterling is a cheaper brand owned by Kohler. As mentioned below, just because it's a Kohler doesn't mean it works well.

The simple answer is that there are low-flow toilets that work very well and dispose of even-close-to-unreasonable amounts of waste without clogging. We have three Totos, and all of them work quietly and exceptionally-well.

There are also very pretty non-Toto toilets that work horribly, including ones from major American manufacturers. I took a sledgehammer to an expensive, very-charming-looking Kohler Portrait toilet with their Ingenium flush two years ago, and never looked back. It exhibited exactly the symptoms that yours did -- amazing me by clogging on miniscule amounts of waste, even with no TP. About the only thing that would go down reliably was liquid. No adjusting would fix it.

portrait-k3591-01.jpg


The key is the design of the toilet's trapway, and Toto uses a proprietary trapway design which pulls the waste from the bowl very effectively. It's almost anticlimatic, because after dealing with the Kohler, one wants to have something that blasts the waste from the bowl with a giant woosh. Toto doesn't do that; you flush, the waste leaves, done.

We now have two Original Drakes and a Carlyle II (which is like an Ultramax II but has a special adapter that lets it fit on a 10" rough-in, which we needed). All three are excellent. I like the double-cyclone flush on the Carlyle II, but it isn't absolutely-necessary; it just gives a little better bowl wash. So if budget is a concern, the Original Drake is also a decent contender, although I will probably go with a Drake II for the next toilet that needs replacing.

The II Series toilets are a good value, because they include as standard equipment a lot of stuff that's optional on the older models, like the CEFIONTECT finish and the Universal Height. And,of course, the double cyclone flush which helps with bowl rinse.

One thing to know is that Totos have a very-high list price, but the street price is much better. You can look at Terry's prices in the "Sale on Toilets" red box above to see what a fair price is if you are buying from your plumber or buying locally. You can also get a sense of what a fair service price is for installation by a plumber. Both toilets you mention can be installed DIY without a lot of drama. The Ultramax II will come with a seat; the Drake II doesn't come with a seat, but Toto's SS114 Seat is a nice, thick, comfortable heavy plastic seat with a slow-close feature that you will like a lot. You can also use virtually any manufacturer's elongated seat on the Drake II.

In short, both are excellent choices and should make you very heppy. Just pick the one that is aesthetically most pleasing to you. I read a review on a big consumer sale site not too long ago where the guy described how he hated the toilet that came with the house so much that he asked his wife for a Toto for his birthday, and loves it so much that every time he flushes it, he yells "Toto!!!". And he wonders why he didn't replace it sooner.

Feel free to come back with any questions and/or to let us know how it works out for you!
 
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DannyDan

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Wow, thanks!
That definitely makes me feel more confident in the decision to replace.
One other question - should I worry about the the bottom size of the toilet or is there a universal size? i.e. would I have any kind of flooring work required to install these and / or do I need additional flooring material?
 

WJcandee

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Well, the Sterling 402081 is a toilet that sits on a 12" rough-in, which is standard, so most likely the Totos, which also are make for a 12" rough-in, should fit just fine. You can take a tape measure and measure from the center of the bolts holding down the toilet to the finished wall (not the baseboard). If it's 12", you are all set. If it's less, let us know how much less. Most toilets don't fill the entire space between the center of the flange and the wall, but how much distance you have to work with varies by toilet.

If you're talking about the base of the china and how it covers the floor, hopefully the contractor has tiled up to and/or near the toilet flange that he mounted in the floor, so when you take up the old toilet, the new toilets will sit on the floor and you won't have any tile gaps. There is no standard base size, however. Where people have added new levels of tile around their old toilet, this sometimes is an issue, but in new construction it shouldn't be (cross fingers). Hope this helps.
 

hj

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quote; since our toilets are already brand new, what are the odds that replacing them will fix our problem

The "efficiency" or a toilet depends on its design, NOT how "new" it is. If it is a bad toilet, it could be one day old and still need replacing. I do not use TOTO toilets, I have my own preferences, but have heard they are very effective.

 
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DannyDan

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Ok, I measured 12" from the center bolt to wall, in one bathroom even slightly more.
Our contractor that put down the flooring took out the toilets during installation, so hopefully he did that right...
 

Jadnashua

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ANy 12" rough-in toilet will work if there's at least 12", and if it's further from the wall, the toilet will still fit, but project into the room a bit further. Most toilets have at least some space behind them, so a 12" rough-in toilet often can work if that 12" is a bit short...since there is no standard on space behind, there's no guarantee if it is short, but it will always work if it is at least 12" unless the toilet is defective or designed for another rough-in (the most common one in the USA is made for a 12" rough, but the other two commonly available (limited choices, though) are 10, or 14".
 

DannyDan

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Thanks again!
Last question :)
If I get the Drake II which doesn't come with a toilet seat, can I simply use the current seat we have from the Sterling?
 

WJcandee

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Absolutely. It will take pretty much any generic elongated toilet seat. The Toto SS114 is very nice, fits well, and has a slow-close feature that you will get used to very fast. The Mayfair/Bemis slow close with easy-clean hinges is also one we have and like. Both are available locally and online at a good discount from list price.
 

DannyDan

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Hey guys,

A plumber from the company the builder used was just at our place. He says that the Sterling toilet we have is actually rated pretty high (>800 map flush score).
This made me question once again whether the Toto will actually make a difference since the current toilets already get a high rating. Or is that rating all BS anyway?
I'm assuming there are more factors to consider...?
 

Jadnashua

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Realize that 800g is nearly two pounds...a more typical deposit is probably less than half of that. As has already been said, the guy who developed the MAP test says anything over 500g is fluff, and doesn't mean much. The stuff they flush in the test is plastic wrapped paste...don't know anyone who packages it that way in the real world. Many of the manufacturers, realizing the test, have made their toilet work well with that stuff - and may not be all that good compared to the real stuff and how well it goes down.

Bowl wash, resistance to clogging (a trapway design not necessarily exposed during the MAP test since it is all smooth and slick), and overall quality are part of it and Toto beats most companies in producing a reliable product. Toto is the world's largest manufacturer of toilets and makes the US based suppliers look like corner stores in overall total sales. You don't get that big by producing a lousy product. And, many of them sold in the USA are made in Georgia (but by no means all).

It's your house...if they work okay, leave them, but if not, my personal experience is that things will be better with a Toto there.
 

DannyDan

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Thanks! I suspected there was more to it...
He also said to avoid using Charmin TP brand. Would you guys agree with that recommendation??
 

WJcandee

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A lot of people like the Kirkland brand that you get at Costco -- it's their number-one-selling product. It's relatively-soft and still dissolves well.

Unfortunately, I will admit that the nice high rag content of Charmin Ultra provides a softness that this guy has become accustomed-to. And I'm far from a one-square-per-flush guy. So I am qualified to attest that our Toto Drakes will flush a reasonable amount of the stuff with no problem. Not to say that I can't plug it with gigantic wads of Charmin -- I can. But reasonable use of Charmin works fine.

That said, everyone on here says not to use it because it is probably the most likely to clog the trapway because it doesn't dissolve well.
 

Wallijonn

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A plumber from the company the builder used was just at our place. He says that the Sterling toilet we have is actually rated pretty high (>800 map flush score). This made me question once again whether the Toto will actually make a difference since the current toilets already get a high rating.

http://www.sterlingplumbing.com/onlinecatalog/pdf/1110492_4.pdf

Look at the trapway. It suffers from the same problem as most Kohlers - that right angle at the bowl exit... Compare that to the Toto Drake. https://terrylove.com/pdf/cst743s.pdf

Replace it with some nice Drake 1.6g or 1.28g toilets. Your Sterling has a two button flush. So does the Toto Drake - lightly depress the handle and it flushes less than half a tank of water (well, at least my 1.6g does.) Since you live in CA you may want to check out the 1g and 1.28g Totos. You'll have to read their reviews elsewhere to get a better idea of how they will preform in your home.
 
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Jadnashua

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While many toilets can exhibit what may be perceived as a high/low flush, unless it was engineered for it (like those with two buttons or a special handle), only those Totos advertised as dual flush reliably work in that manner. Keep in mind that on a true dual-flush toilet, the amount of water in the bowl must be totally evacuated on the low volume flush. Unless it was engineered for that, you're only diluting what's there, not totally flushing it all out. IOW, use at your own risk, it's not advertised that way for a reason.
 

Wallijonn

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... on a true dual-flush toilet, the amount of water in the bowl must be totally evacuated on the low volume flush. Unless it was engineered for that, you're only diluting what's there, not totally flushing it all out.

True enough, but the Drake does seem to totally evacuate on the low volume flush. The problem, of course, is that since there are no two buttons people can flush too much, so it's not likely to get a certification.

My problem with low flow toilets is that they don't impress me much, at least the ones I've seen (Kohler 1.28g). Then there's the water spot size, it just seems smaller and seems to have raised ridges in the toilet. I would love to see how a Drake 1.28g, Drake II, etc. & et. al., work, whether they are as efficient as the Drake 1.6g, but I seem to be the only person at work that has a Toto. My Drake 1.6g seems to use less water than the old Eljer 1.6g at work, which I considered an excellent flusher. Now the whole idea of gravity feed no longer appeals to me. Translation: even the Toto Cyclone flush doesn't impress me much. Gears and canisters in the tank no longer impress me. Now, if Toto had a commercial type flush valve (no tank), I'd probably go for it.
 
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Plumbs Away

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quote; since our toilets are already brand new, what are the odds that replacing them will fix our problem

The "efficiency" or a toilet depends on its design, NOT how "new" it is. If it is a bad toilet, it could be one day old and still need replacing. I do not use TOTO toilets, I have my own preferences, but have heard they are very effective.
Out of curiosity, what is your preferred toilet?
 

Plumbs Away

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Thanks! I suspected there was more to it...
He also said to avoid using Charmin TP brand. Would you guys agree with that recommendation??
Charmin Basic is single-ply and flushes well. Yes, it's more expensive that the God-awful Scott 1,000 sheets per role reject single-ply, but it's sturdier and much more comfortable.
 
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