Descaling home plumbing

Good Morning all,
I want to share and hopefully get feedback on a recent experiment.
Our home was built in the mid sixties and has copper plumbing throughout the supply side. Because of mineral? deposits inside the hot water pipes we have very little water pressure and flow in the part of the house farthest from the water heater. I recently replaced our tankless water heater and while the old heater was out I descaled the hot water side of our system. Using a 1/3 hp sump pump, a 5 gallon bucket with 3 gal white vinegar and one gal CLR I attached a garden hose from the pump output to the hot water supply faucet in the utility room which is the farthest point from the water heater. The pump flushed the pipes with reverse flow from that faucet to the hot water pipe and bucket with pump in the water heater closet. After four hours the bucket had about an inch of white "bb and larger" sized chunks in it. I shut the pump off for the night, leaving the solution in the pipes and resumed the next morning.
By then all the chunks had dissolved. During the first flush, I opened each bathroom hot faucet and let the descaling solution flow though. Repeated that again the next morning and flushed for another hour. After finishing the descaling I connected the cold water supply to the hot and left the hose connected to the washer faucet and put the hose outdoors so that it released the rinse water into the storm drain nearby.
Our city water department had no problem with my releasing the rinse solution into the drain.
After thoroughly flushing the pipes and inside faucets I closed the faucet and removed the hose and installed the new tankless heater. ( a Noritz double vent condensing unit that uses PVC venting.)
We now have good hot water pressure and flow through out the house. We moved into the house in 1987 and have not had good hot water pressure until now. Before doing this I asked several plumbers about it and most thought it was too much trouble with little to be gained. What do you think? It's been over 30 days since I did it and so far I have seen no adverse effects, only greatly improved hot water flow and pressure to the kitchen and laundry.
Lee

You may need a water softener. http://www.noritz.com/commercial/fi... Limited Warranty - Commercial Terms 7-09.pdf

Another brand said the warranty was void if used with water more than 7 grains of hardness! Noritz says 12 grains.

Reach4 said:

You may need a water softener. http://www.noritz.com/commercial/fi... Limited Warranty - Commercial Terms 7-09.pdf

Another brand said the warranty was void if used with water more than 7 grains of hardness! Noritz says 12 grains.

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Ours is currently less than 5 but I have no idea what is was prior to 1987.

I do not think flushing your system was the answer to your pressure problem. I bet the old water heater had so much build-up in the connections it was obstructing water flow. That said, it probably did not hurt anything as long as you disinfected the insides of your pipes after using a sump pump to pump the water in. I am glad your new heater is in and the water pressure is better.

I think it's great that you managed to solve the problem in the end. At the end of the day, what you want is to see results right? But you might actually want to get a plumber or someone who can provide electrical plumbing services to come have a look at it, just in case. Not to fix it or fiddle around with it mind. Just some diagnostics to see if they can find any weak points in the system that may need a little paying attention to.

Scaling

SHR said:

I do not think flushing your system was the answer to your pressure problem. I bet the old water heater had so much build-up in the connections it was obstructing water flow. That said, it probably did not hurt anything as long as you disinfected the insides of your pipes after using a sump pump to pump the water in. I am glad your new heater is in and the water pressure is better.

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Since the old heater was tankless and was scaled regularly I found no build-up at all in its connections.

FarrellMackennon said:

I think it's great that you managed to solve the problem in the end. At the end of the day, what you want is to see results right? But you might actually want to get a plumber or someone who can provide electrical plumbing services to come have a look at it, just in case. Not to fix it or fiddle around with it mind. Just some diagnostics to see if they can find any weak points in the system that may need a little paying attention to.

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A plumber was here yesterday. All is well.

Thanks to all for input.

In my 60 years in the trade, I have NEVER seen a copper water system "clog up" with scale.

hj said:

In my 60 years in the trade, I have NEVER seen a copper water system "clog up" with scale.

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I have a copper water system (on well water) and it is definitely "clogged up" with calcium scale, so bad that brand new toilet fill valves and brand new sink faucets only work for a few days before becoming crammed with little calcium pebbles. In my case, there was an air infuser for a reverse osmosis system that was turned way to high and infusing too many airbubbles in my pipes, which was effectively pressure-washing off the scale. This collects in the filters in your fixtures and clogs everything up. I was hesitant to use CLR in my potable water pipes. I don't have a water softener and obviously need one, I read somewhere that soft water will break down scale over after a few months of using it in your pipes. Not sure if that is a fact.

Mike

Mike, I would get a lab water test done if you have not already done so. I like kit 90 from http://www.karlabs.com/watertestkit/ . Plan your softener and maybe other treatment. Your iron, manganese, pH as well as hardness are factors in deciding what you want to get. That test does not test for H2S. Your nose will tell you about that.

A reverse osmosis system should be fed with soft water.

And I would add in at least one cartridge filter to catch solids. I like the 20 x 4.5 inch Pentek Big Blue housings for whole-house use. They accept a wide variety of elements from many places. I would have one in front of the softener. You could put that in now ahead of where your softener will connect. Don't run the irrigation water through the softener.

I would also flush the water heater. This is more than just draining. At a minimum, after draining, you would turn the water back on for a few seconds, and wait for it to drain again. Repeat a few times. You are trying to generate turbulence. To get more, you can replace the drain valve with a 3/4 inch nipple temporarily to get a bigger hole. With a bigger hole, you might be able to feed in a wand spraying water.

Your valves and screens clogging from particles is not the same as clogged pipes.

hj said:

In my 60 years in the trade, I have NEVER seen a copper water system "clog up" with scale.

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Scale comes from calcium and magnesium in the water. Rain water, rolling over rocks picks up these two elements, and since rain water, sooner or later becomes feed water, we have to deal with calcium and magnesium. These two elements are unusual because they dissolve in cold water and become solid in hot water. If you've ever seen a water heater "lime up" you know what I'm talking about. That "lime" is mostly calcium and magnesium.

Check valves in a return system are a major source of trouble because the smallest bit of scale can hold a flapper open.

hj said:

In my 60 years in the trade, I have NEVER seen a copper water system "clog up" with scale.

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Preface: NOT a professional plumber.

Even as not a plumber, I've seen the extreme case of this, this past year.

Last year, had a friend in Austin whose water pressure and flow were abysmal. It got to the point where at least one of the fixtures (kitchen faucet) was not flowing at all. We did (our best to) perform the "fill with vinegar and let it sit overnight" trick. This turned out to be a major mistake. Apparently his house (which he'd only owned for about 15 years, but dated back to the early-70's)...had NEVER been descaled.

After the fill & sit step, we went to start draining per fixture. We ruined two fixtures (unfortunately, the two most difficult to get to, the bathroom sink and the shower) before we realized we had huge problems.

On taking the hose off the bib under the sink, it was scaled so bad, you MIGHT have been able to get a "Coffee stir straw" through the hole. Enough gunk had broken through it likely permanently clogged that fixture (replaced). But we had bigger problems. At EVERY fixture, when we'd take the hose or fitting off the bib, there was a blockage just like in the kitchen.

We had to resort to (2-man job)
1. closing the street-valve,
2. chipping the worst of the gunk clogging the opening of the bib out of it...in the worst, it was thick enough that we ALMOST needed a longer screw-driver before we reached the point where the built up "rock" scale was no longer visible.
3. letting the individual bib we were working on flow for 30 seconds (into a handy mop bucket), then turn off...OVER AND OVER AND OVER until no gunk came out in the flow (we were looking into the bucket at each flush). The amount of sediment and gunk that came out of that system was incredible. From sand to actual solid chunks of gravel.

We ended up having to do every hot & cold bib in the house even tho common knowledge is that cold-water doesn't build up...maybe that's "shouldn't build up if you keep up your maintenance"...I guess "common knowledge" hasn't met a 50-year-old house that's never been maintained.

We ended up having to replace every fixture in the house, including the shower...which involved tearing out the wall behind the shower (fortunately it backed up to a closet) to get to the piping...and rebuilding THAT piping since it was soldered in and ancient, we actually broke the pipe for the hot-water side in the process it was so brittle.




Moral of the story: DO YOUR PREVENTATIVE MAINTENANCE EVERY YEAR or you will come to regret it.