Old shifty crack at tub/tile wall interface (front side) has become intolerable

cacher_chick said:

I think you are wasting your time unless you intend to make all of the repairs yourself. Knowing that there is a repeat problem there, any contractor worth his salt is going to gut the tub area, repair the structural issues, and replace the existing plumbing. What is leaking now will be in the garbage unless you insist on only doing only part of the job.

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Ok, I am will to do this. But when you say gut the tub area, what I am wondering is how much to gut. What they are planning to do is the following:
1. Take out cast iron tub (have to take out about 4 rows of tile to take out the tub) (carpenter)
2. Replace rotted flooring. (carpenter)
3. Put in new acrylic tub. (plumber)
4. Put down new linoleum flooring and replace the 4 rows of tile (tiling guy)

Of course, if something else is found in the process, it will be done as well. The thing about this leak is that it is so shifty. So, since it happened to me before, I just don't have to do the this fairly large job, and then have a shifty leak show up again.

Might I ask you opinion of the above 4 steps? are there other things that should be included on the list.

Much appreciated.

My concern with that plan is that we still don't know if the walls behind the tile were properly waterproofed in the first place. In a shower, the walls should be waterproofed before the tile is installed. I would hate to see you have all that work done and still not have a properly built shower.

cacher_chick said:

My concern with that plan is that we still don't know if the walls behind the tile were properly waterproofed in the first place. In a shower, the walls should be waterproofed before the tile is installed. I would hate to see you have all that work done and still not have a properly built shower.

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Very good point. I don't want to redo everything and then find out the walls are bad. Here is the story as far as I know it on the walls:

Way back at the beginning of time, when the problem first started to become noticeable, it was thought to be a tiling/walls problem. It was to the point where tiling on the front wall of the shower was coming off the wall. A tiling/linoleum flooring guy was hired to take out the tiling and fix the floor, which was also going. Because the problem was leaking, the guy was very good about wanting to make things impervious to water. He showed me the green board stuff that he put up as wall behind the new tiling he put in. I believe he called it cement board. Anyway, my impression is that this was his best recommendation for keeping out water. He was as surprised as everyone when it turned out that his all new everything didn't stop water from appearing in the basement during showers.
After bringing him and his caulk gun back quite a few times, and also having a plumber reinstall new pipes, nobody could figure out why this thing was leaking during showers only.
That was when I originally joined this forum and the internet plumber figured out that it had to do with weight in the tub, it would not leak without weight in the tub. Solution worked for probably 4-5 years: put weight (water) in the tub and then caulk.

Anyway, are there any ways that I can test whether my walls are ok or not in terms of being water tight? The walls behind the shower are this green board stuff that has a rough surface and is stiff but fairly light (porous-like).
Thanks again for all your help and expertise.

Cement board is good for a tile backer, but it still must be waterproofed. Green board is a moisture resistant gypsum, which has been all but outlawed in a shower installation because it will fail when it gets wet.

I would look for a tile company that knows how to properly waterproof the backerboard before they tile it. Not doing so will be nothing more than a temporary fix.

ok, this is very good to know. Might I ask another question? At the moment, the plan is to just take out some lower rows of tile, enough to get the cast iron tub out so that the floor can be redone. I not sure how that would work out with your suggestion that the backerboard needs to be properly waterproofed before retiling.
In other words, the present plan would only allow access to the backerboard that is below the lower rows of tile.

Perhaps this would not be good?
Thanks so much again, Ruth

I think you have answered your own question.
If the walls are not waterproof, should you be using the tub as as shower?

If your roof were not waterproof, would you just hope for the best?

Here is another idea for purposes of learning the cause of the leak. Get some good stretchy packing tape such as Scotch. Bridge the gap between the tile and the tub. Take care to press into the grout lines. Possibly do a second layer higher than the first.

Take some showers. If the leaks stop, figure the leaking was at the tub-tile joint.

Maybe there is a better tape for the purpose. You might want to test how removable the adhesive is before a full scale test. I don't know if a masking tape (which remove more cleanly) would be water resistant enough.

Reach4 said:

Here is another idea for purposes of learning the cause of the leak. Get some good stretchy packing tape such as Scotch. Bridge the gap between the tile and the tub. Take care to press into the grout lines. Possibly do a second layer higher than the first.

Take some showers. If the leaks stop, figure the leaking was at the tub-tile joint.

Maybe there is a better tape for the purpose. You might want to test how removable the adhesive is before a full scale test. I don't know if a masking tape (which remove more cleanly) would be water resistant enough.

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ok, here are some data relevant to this question.

When you go to the caulk section of the hardware store (at least the one in my town), one of the things they have is a special kind of tape for this purpose. It is very thick and kind of squishy, almost like a flat hose. It is marketed as an easy way to caulk. Since I was having to recaulk every couple of months, I thought this was the answer to my dreams. I think mostly due to the nature of the tape stuff itself, it really wasn't a solution, at least not for any length of time. The tape couldn't really get in there and seal up like caulk does. With use of the shower, the tape didn't really stick well.

I forgot to mention in response to one of the questions above, at a different point in time, I also thought that backer rod would be the answer. I cleaned everything out, put backer rod in, and recaulked over the backer rod. In the end, believe it or not, the backer rod ended up making the situation WORSE. I don't understand why. My best guess is that people getting in and out of the tub again loosened the caulk. The backer rod stuffed in there may have increased the size of the crack between the tub and the tile wall ---> more water in basement.

After the backer rod episode, a brilliant hardware store guy came up with another idea. I bought a short shower rod, one that fits across the front of the tub underneath the hot and cold water handles. I cut a piece of waterproof shower curtain to fit across this rod and come down about 3 inches. In other words, a teeny weeny shower curtain over the front edge of the tub where it hits the tile wall. There are a lot of inconveniences with this arrangement. However, my impression is that when everything is right, it does stem the water from coming into the basement. One of the problems is that water can kind of get behind this thing from the side front corners of the tub. Another problem is that it is one of those shower rods that is held up by pressure (by a spring inside), so it slips and then is no longer tight against the wall. It is off at the moment, but I will put is back up to retest. My impression is that it can help the situation.

Thanks again for all your help considering all of my strange leak problems,
Ruth

cacher_chick said:

My concern with that plan is that we still don't know if the walls behind the tile were properly waterproofed in the first place. In a shower, the walls should be waterproofed before the tile is installed. I would hate to see you have all that work done and still not have a properly built shower.

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Might I ask you whether you have any thoughts on the issue of the tub. In other words, once everything else is done, would it be preferable to reset the current cast iron tub, or to install a new acrylic tub.

Thanks again for your thoughts and expertise.

Ruth

I would not reset an old tub.
There is always wear and tear on a tub. You will never get a better time than now to replace it.
The most durable is cast iron. Acylic comes in more sizes and is easier to work with.

thanks so much Terry. The plumber is advocating for acrylic. Having had an ongoing problem with the old cast iron tub, I am inclined to go along with him.
Ruth

Really appreciate the forum.
R

Ask what the plumber plans to put under the acrylic tub. Mortar or some such is the right answer. The mortar should have plastic sheet over (not sure which is better) or under or both...

Reach4 said:

Ask what the plumber plans to put under the acrylic tub. Mortar or some such is the right answer. The mortar should have plastic sheet over (not sure which is better) or under or both...

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Ok, thanks so much for this idea. I have a call in to the plumber to ask what he is planning to do. Might I ask, what is the purpose of the mortar? The carpenter who is going to do the floor was here today. A couple of thoughts from him:

1. He thought that some kind of honeycomb material would be going under the acrylic tub.

2. A thought is that I could take out one or two tiles. Take out a tile from the lowest row on the front wall. I could then potentially see the flange, see if there is one, if it has deteriorated/rusted etc. This might help diagnose the problem.

3. Following up on #2 above, first of all, from talking with carpenter it seems likely that the walls installed behind the tile (about 5-10 years ago) are green board. The other thing is, my recollection is that the green board comes down nearly to hit the front of the tub. What I am wondering is how the green board is situated relative to the tub, and how it is supposed to be situated. In my recollection, it is possible that the green board is obscuring the flange at the front of the tub. I don't know whether this could be causing my problem. However, taking out one tile as mentioned in #2 above might lend insight into this question.

Thanks so much again for your ongoing assistance.
R