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Thread: American Standard Champion 4 toilet review and pictures

  1. #106
    DIY Senior Member wjcandee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ttabbal View Post
    Thanks for the info. It's very helpful. I'm glad I found such a good source of information in this forum.

    It seems like the trapway size, like most things, will have a point of diminishing returns. Are we hitting that at the sizes available today? Just wondering if it's really helpful in the real world to go bigger past the Drake. The difference is pretty small.....
    For 95 percent of the populace, there's no reason to go bigger than the Drake. Only people with certain conditions that (forgive me) produce large, unusually-hard stools can be aided by a bigger trapway, and for that Terry recommends the Caroma.

    The Champion actually only has a 3" hole in the china where the flush valve goes. They put the funnelator thingy on there to try to market a bigger flush valve, but it isn't. I have yet to see any actual scientific information that would support the idea that water flows better through a 3" hole with a 4" funnel on top than it does through a 3" hole with no such funnel. The proven Drake flapper system continues to work well and reliably, and is cheaply and easily replaced, unlike the Champion 4's seal, which some people have no trouble replacing, and others find flummoxing.

  2. #107
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
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    It's the engineering that's important. The bigger the flapper valve, the more water pressure pushing down on the thing, and the sooner it fails unless you reinforce it lots more, which means extra costs, either for the first one, or when you have to periodically (more often than a 'normal' one) replace it. When everyone went from the old monster flushes to the 3.5g ones, they often just reduced the amount of water flow without changing the design. THat was still enough to work okay in some cases. Then, when the requirements dropped to 1.6g, they did the same thing and those that didn't re-engineer things ended up with toilets that were real dogs. Terry said he had a tour of the Kohler factory when this was discussed...they went to a 4" for the bragging rights, not because it was necessary. Kohler tends to have the not invented here disease and likes to do things their own way, regardless of whether it's a good idea or not!
    Jim DeBruycker
    Important note - I'm not a pro
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer; Schluter 2.5-day Workshop Completed 2013, 2014

  3. #108
    DIY Junior Member KC2WE's Avatar
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    I just installed a Champion 4 - 1.28 GPF today and it performs just as good as the 1.6 GPF Champion installed in 2010 in another bath in our home. Although I'm not a plumber and just a homeowner, I'm a EE and had a Red Seal license in NJ at one time (who says electrcity & water don't mix), so I've done some pipe fitting here and there. In my opinion, both the 1.28 and the 1.6 work without a flaw. Since I've had the 1.6 GPF toilet from 2010, we threw out the various hand plungers around the house, 'cause with this one you don't need 'em. Water savings here in NJ is not an issue; it seems at times we have too much water. Anyway, I'd rate both very high. Never had a failure on the 1.6 GPF. I guess they stopped making the 1.6 and now the 1.28 is latest requirement, but not sure. Comparing the two will tell if there's any difference in performance in the coming weeks.
    Last edited by KC2WE; 03-03-2013 at 11:47 AM.

  4. #109
    Forum Admin, Expert Plumber Terry's Avatar
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    The thread I started, called "I HATE TOTO!", was never meant to be a thread. It was meant to be just a post. I personally, still do not like Toto at all though.
    GoKohlerGo
    I'm not a hater.
    I like people and things. I do have preferences on things.



    By the way, my son Jamie and I are having dinner with some folks we know from Kohler in Seattle Monday night.

    From left to right. My son James Love, Terry Love, Jennifer Nye (Kohler), Brian Hedlund (Kohler) at Anthony's Pier 66 in Seattle.

    They had Kohler plumbing fixtures in my hotel in Jaipur, India
    I heard they were doing more business there.



    Kohler Wall Hung Toilet with bidet spray on side wall.



    Kohler Bath tub



    This pool on our private deck was nice.
    Last edited by Terry; 03-09-2013 at 08:06 AM.

  5. #110
    Retired Machine Repairman wptski's Avatar
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    I like the wall mounted phone, corded yet!
    Bill
    Retired Machine Repairman
    Just a DIY'r

  6. #111
    Comments by readers Reader Review's Avatar
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    Default Toilet review, Champion 2013

    I recently replaced three toilets in my house with the American Standard Champion model, 2 were elongated and 1 was round. All 3 continually leak water, causing an irritatingly loud noise each time at regular intervals between 10-15 minutes. The fact that this design was to save water is great, the fact that they use more water when they are not being used than when they are being flushed is simply a travesty. If anyone is looking for more disgruntled customers to join a class-action lawsuit, Iím waiting to hear from you. As a side note, I did read the reviews of this problem but figured as they were mostly between the years of 2005 and 2009, this inherent design flaw would have been fixed. I purchased the toilets at Home Depot in the spring of 2013.

    Steve S, AIA, LEED AP BD+C
    Associate
    McLean, VA

  7. #112
    DIY Senior Member wjcandee's Avatar
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    Well, if Steve's review was from an email to Terry, I don't know if he will see it on here, but if he does...

    Steve, we can probably help you get them so they at least stop leaking. There are some good tricks we have discovered over the years that may help. Post on here and tell us where you perceive them to be leaking (I assume it's through the flush valve seal, i.e. if you turn off the water to the tank, the water level in the tank will have dropped if you look at it an hour later). OTOH, if you want to replace them, we can put you in a Toto Drake for about the same money, or even less, and you assuredly will be satisfied.

  8. #113
    DIY Junior Member Mike Reid's Avatar
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    Default Me too....unfortunately.

    I've owned my Champion (the name seems quite ironic given a 500+ thread detailing all the weaknesses) for about 8 years now. I got sucked in by the GOLF BALL demo at Lowes and fell for it the same as most, lol.

    Marketing in America.....ain't it grand?

    I feel more like a GOOFBALL (now) after reading all the issues with this toilet. Although I haven't had any of the dreaded leak problems referenced, my toilet started running incessantly about two nights ago, and the tank wouldn't fill. I just turned off the water supply and set about researching online. It wasn't until I happened upon this forum that I ACTUALLY came to identify a name for the infamous "Flush Tower" that seems to be the cause of my troubles. After leaving the water supply off for 1.5 days and turning it back on, the "running" problem seems to have abated, but now the bowl won't fill properly.

    Home Depot tried to get me to purchase a generic flapper change kit. Didn't trust that advice so I went back to the scene of the crime 8 years earlier--Lowes. They folks there were much more knowledgeable and revealed that the parts weren't available in store.

    I needed to call AS.....which I will do today for the replacement parts. Wish me luck on if they work or not. Speaking of luck, I'm sooooo glad I bought two KOHLERS and only ONE AS when I replaced my toilets back in '05.

    Them damn golf balls.

    PS- What's the status of that class action mentioned above? Anybody know?

  9. #114
    DIY Senior Member wjcandee's Avatar
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    If you don't want to wait for AS to get you the replacement for the flush tower, which they call the "accelerator" flush valve, you do have the ability to just go with a flapper-based system, which will be easy to fix down the road. Korky makes a 5030BP Large 3" Flush Valve that you definitely can use in your Champion. http://korky.com/FlushValveKit5030BP.html. In fact, the box expressly shows that it can replace the Champion's flush valve, with a picture of the Funnelator flush valve they now use.

    It's a relatively-new product which you may not be able to find everywhere, but it's a great idea. I have Korky flappers in all seven of our toilets, and they're the ones plumbers recommend. A flapper flush valve will be easy to fix (just swap the flapper) down the road, as opposed to the device that AS is installing in the toilet. I have one of these Large 3" flush valves, and it seems well-made.
    Last edited by wjcandee; 06-10-2013 at 04:59 PM.

  10. #115
    Forum Admin, Expert Plumber Terry's Avatar
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    Trapway exit on the Champion 4 bowl.



    Inside the tank of a Champion 4



    Champion 4 flush valve.



    Side profile of the Champion 4

  11. #116
    DIY Junior Member queen50's Avatar
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    The newest 'review' here is from 2009. We have 3 Champion 4s in our house, two 'right height' elongated and one round conventional one. Two of them were installed 3 years ago, and one last year. We've never had a clog in any of them, not any problem with them running. We did have to replace the flush handle on one. Also, I AS seats seem flimsy.

  12. #117

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    They might meet high standards for their flushing performance but it sounds like thatís all theyíre good for from these customer reviews! I came across these reviews today and was surprised as I have actually fitted quite a lot of American Standard Champion products over the years through my plumbing company, and generally Champion are of a high quality and do what they claim to do. On this product however they seem to have started off on a bad foot, though I have to say that they must have made improvements since these reviews were posted. Any business that gets so many dissatisfied customers has to quickly do some serious sucking up and fix the issues quickly and successfully as otherwise it will have a major impact on their business.

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