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Thread: Why does drywall work in a Kerdi Shower?

  1. #16
    DIY Senior Member DougB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jadnashua View Post
    As with anything, if you make a mistake or breech the waterproof layer, you'll have problems. off, but that's hardly likely to happen inside of a properly built
    There is a concept called risk. That's why there's insurance, hedge funds, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by jadnashua View Post
    Don't let any nay-sayers force you into any other extra steps by making you feel guilty...
    Well it seems to me (just a DIY'er - gutted three bathrooms) that cement board and hydroban or redguard is less work than the extra steps of mixing thinset and applying the Kerdi

    Quote Originally Posted by jadnashua View Post
    IF you do it right, it will not leak. IF it does, fix it before you put up your tile.
    You're not going to know if it leaks at a seam.

    Quote Originally Posted by jadnashua View Post
    Based on the certification, doing it otherwise could void the warranty
    Warranty? Really? I would suppose nobody has ever collected on it, cause if was installed 'properly' it would not leak. Therefore if it leaks, it wasn't installed properly.
    If a hammer won't fix it, it's an electrical problem.

  2. #17
    Jack of all trades DonL's Avatar
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    I Love a good Contest.

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  3. #18
    DIY Senior Member DougB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dhagin View Post
    Schluter has a proprietary system that has been tested to meet or exceed industry standards. Plain fact is, their system works. You wanna not trust the manufacturer or industry who approves their products for their intended uses, when there are successful installs over drywall functioning just fine for many years out there, that's certainly your prerogative.
    IMO sites like this are frequented by DIY'ers who don't do this every day. It's my opinion that Kerdi will be more challenging for a person doing it for the first time, and maybe the only time.
    If a hammer won't fix it, it's an electrical problem.

  4. #19
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DougB View Post
    IMO sites like this are frequented by DIY'ers who don't do this every day. It's my opinion that Kerdi will be more challenging for a person doing it for the first time, and maybe the only time.
    More challenging in what way? A conventional shower's liner requires some very detailed steps to ensure the liner is waterproof where you MUST cut it to fit over the curb, then seal corners on it, and maybe seam it if the sheet isn't big enough. The biggest worry about water leaks are at the pan and over the curb - gravity just dictates that the water is going to go there. Flood test it before you cover it with tile, just like a Kerdi build...fix it if it leaks. Especially on a wall, after the thinset cures, water does not wick very far into a seam, and if you build it correctly, you have at LEAST 2" of overlap. Prior to full cure, yes, it can weep in further, but even after a day, if you did it right, the pan does not leak. If you haphazardly put holes in your curb, you're an idiot, and anything that happens as a result, regardless of whether it is Kerdi on it or a conventional liner, you're going to have problems.

    As to a surface, paint on waterproofing...I'll take a manufactured waterproof sheet any day over a waterproofing material I have to paint on and worry if it is without pinholes or is the proper thickness over the entire area to do its job properly.
    Jim DeBruycker
    Important note - I'm not a pro
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer; Schluter 2.5-day Workshop Completed 2013, 2014

  5. #20
    DIY Senior Member jim mills's Avatar
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    My only thought would be this. If I build two showers for someone, both on the second story of a two story house, a master and a mail bath. Lets say that I used kerdi over drywall in one, and kerdi over CMU in the other. A year after I finish, I get a call: "Jim, we have spots on the ceiling below both showers you built". Is my response: "Oh, we will have to gut & re-do the one I drywalled, but the other will be fine because we used CMU".

    I'm trying to figure out your logic that a water resistant material behind a waterproof membrane is better, because in a surface applied waterproofing system, if water gets past it...it's a total failure no matter what's behind it.

  6. #21
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jim mills View Post
    I'm trying to figure out your logic that a water resistant material behind a waterproof membrane is better, because in a surface applied waterproofing system, if water gets past it...it's a total failure no matter what's behind it.
    If you think this way, why don't you use it on the ceiling in case your roof leaks, or around your windows and doors? Installed properly, it works. Nothing says you can't use the other materials, but, if it DID leak, eventually, you'd still have to tear out and fix it.

    I have no problem if you wish to use any of the approved materials, it's just that I do object to the jerk reaction that it WILL fail if you use drywall there after it has been tested and proven, done properly, it doesn't matter.

    I think we can both agree that drywall is quicker and easier to put up than cbu, and costs less. It works. The choice is yours, just don't tell me it won't work and will fail, because that has never been proven or demonstrated when installed properly. And, having done it, it really isn't all that hard to do properly. Pretty simple rules, ensure proper coverage by periodically pulling back the membrane to verify coverage, and make all of your seams at least a 2" overlap...anyone attempting to build a shower should be able to handle that. If not, pay someone to do it for you.
    Jim DeBruycker
    Important note - I'm not a pro
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer; Schluter 2.5-day Workshop Completed 2013, 2014

  7. #22
    DIY Senior Member DougB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jadnashua View Post
    If you think this way, why don't you use it on the ceiling in case your roof leaks, or around your windows and doors?
    Because your ceilings and walls are not subjected to gallons and gallons of water every day.

    Quote Originally Posted by jadnashua View Post
    drywall is quicker and easier to put up.. and costs less
    Well they sell 108 sq/ft of Kerdi for $164. Then you need corners and tape and pipe seals and mixing valve seal. Then too, you have the thin set cost.

    Here's what one fellow worte. Bought it, ... called Schluter for a couple of questions relating to steam shower application...and guess what! All warranties are OFF (as in null and void) when purchased online.

    What a scam!
    Last edited by Terry; 01-28-2014 at 10:23 AM.
    If a hammer won't fix it, it's an electrical problem.

  8. #23
    DIY Junior Member loudgonzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jadnashua View Post
    If you think this way, why don't you use it on the ceiling in case your roof leaks, or around your windows and doors? Installed properly, it works. Nothing says you can't use the other materials, but, if it DID leak, eventually, you'd still have to tear out and fix it.

    I have no problem if you wish to use any of the approved materials, it's just that I do object to the jerk reaction that it WILL fail if you use drywall there after it has been tested and proven, done properly, it doesn't matter.

    I think we can both agree that drywall is quicker and easier to put up than cbu, and costs less. It works. The choice is yours, just don't tell me it won't work and will fail, because that has never been proven or demonstrated when installed properly. And, having done it, it really isn't all that hard to do properly. Pretty simple rules, ensure proper coverage by periodically pulling back the membrane to verify coverage, and make all of your seams at least a 2" overlap...anyone attempting to build a shower should be able to handle that. If not, pay someone to do it for you.
    Here's a wider picture of our bath, the stand in shower on the left will be torn out and converted to a storage closet after the walk in shower is completed on the right side. The shower valve and head will be mounted on the wall that is dividing the shower and alcove right now.

    My reason for using hardi instead of sheetrock is based on the following "what if"; If a leak develops around the valve or along the plumbing on that divider wall, the soon to be closet wall can be torn down and the leak fixed, the hardi is more resistant to water damage and can prevent tear down of shower tile, since we would be able to access it from the back in this case, where if the drywall were to get wet from a leak, it would have to be replaced requiring total tear down?

    Is my assumption above correct, or am I overlooking something? In short, I can rely on waterproofing the exposed side, but will hardi be better than drywall in this scenario?

    thanks
    Leo

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  9. #24
    DIY Senior Member Vegas_sparky's Avatar
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    I used Hardi on all the wet side walls of my shower. Green board is on the dry side of the same walls. I covered the Hardi with Regard, so mines still shit anyways.

    Can someone pass me the popcorn please?

  10. #25
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DougB View Post
    Here's what one fellow worte: Bought it ... called Schluter for a couple of questions relating to steam shower application...and guess what! All warranties are OFF (as in null and void) when purchased online.

    What a scam!
    It's not like they don't tell you this upfront - IF you look at the company's website, it's right there on the first page. The reason for an authorized dealer is that you have a chance of someone there being able to guide you in the proper use of the material...just like when you buy a grey market item (a camera, watch, etc.) the company, I don't care if it is Nikon, Cannon, Rolex, etc...they will not warranty the item.
    Last edited by Terry; 01-28-2014 at 10:24 AM.
    Jim DeBruycker
    Important note - I'm not a pro
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer; Schluter 2.5-day Workshop Completed 2013, 2014

  11. #26
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by loudgonzo View Post
    Is my assumption above correct, or am I overlooking something? In short, I can rely on waterproofing the exposed side, but will hardi be better than drywall in this scenario?

    thanks
    Leo

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    The only company that has a tested and approved method of building a shower with drywall as the substrate is Schluter with Kerdi. NO other methods have been tested and approved. Depending on how long and how big a leak that might occur, neither Hardie nor drywall may be enough...the underlying wood would rot out. Drywall doesn't immediately fail, you have to soak it. If there's enough to soak it, your structure is at risk.

    How many people build their house to be tolerant of a pipe leak? Nobody. Think of all of the water pipes in the walls and ceilings, beneath kitchen and bathroom sinks, toilets, etc. You test that as well before you close it up and you don't waterproof the walls and ceiling around where they run, either.

    If you cannot tolerate the possibility that something could break, build it a different way and protect yourself...but, a properly built Kerdi shower does not leak, now, or in the future. Any shower, improperly built can lead to structure damage and necessitate a tearout and rebuild.
    Jim DeBruycker
    Important note - I'm not a pro
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer; Schluter 2.5-day Workshop Completed 2013, 2014

  12. #27
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas_sparky View Post
    I used Hardi on all the wet side walls of my shower. Green board is on the dry side of the same walls. I covered the Hardi with Regard, so mines still shit anyways.

    Can someone pass me the popcorn please?
    Custom Building Products has specific instructions on how to use RedGard as a waterproofing layer in a shower. If you follow their instructions carefully and have good workmanship, it can work. Personally, I prefer a sheet membrane. RedGard applied too thin or too thick or with a pinhole is less than ideal.
    Jim DeBruycker
    Important note - I'm not a pro
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer; Schluter 2.5-day Workshop Completed 2013, 2014

  13. #28
    DIY Senior Member DougB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jadnashua View Post
    It's not like they don't tell you this upfront - IF you look at the company's website, it's right there on the first page. The reason for an authorized dealer is that you have a chance of someone there being able to guide you in the proper use of the material...just like when you buy a grey market item (a camera, watch, etc.) the company, I don't care if it is Nikon, Cannon, Rolex, etc...they will not warranty the item.
    Hey man - it's not a camera, not a car, it's some damn fabric that comes off a roller in a factory.

    So I'm supposed to go to a web site? A warranty is a warranty. If it's installed wrong, then it's on me.

    However, if I have installed the product many times, I still have to buy it from an autorized dealer to get the warranty? - which I assume nobody has ever met their spec - thus they have yet to pay a single claim. The only way for the product to fail is if the material is deffective.

    It's a scam Mr Red Sneaker!
    If a hammer won't fix it, it's an electrical problem.

  14. #29
    DIY Senior Member DougB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jadnashua View Post
    How many people build their house to be tolerant of a pipe leak? Nobody.
    I considered it with the three showers I have built. I considered that there is a possibility that perhaps the shower arm (threaded into the drop ear ell) could leak, same for tub spout connection, or a mixing valve. Cement board won't be a problem. Also I was fortunate that I could put an access panel behind the shower valves.
    If a hammer won't fix it, it's an electrical problem.

  15. #30
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DougB View Post
    I considered it with the three showers I have built. I considered that there is a possibility that perhaps the shower arm (threaded into the drop ear ell) could leak, same for tub spout connection, or a mixing valve. Cement board won't be a problem. Also I was fortunate that I could put an access panel behind the shower valves.
    If the leak happens long enough before you notice it, you'll have wood rot, and probably damage to the ceilings below. The ceilings below will probably be the first you notice it if it doesn't leak out onto the floor of that room. And, that does not mean you'd have a failure in the wall assembly...most of it would run down to the floor, and in between, there's a chance it would evaporate...drywall sitting in water damages it faster than a bit of spray while you're actually showering.
    Jim DeBruycker
    Important note - I'm not a pro
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer; Schluter 2.5-day Workshop Completed 2013, 2014

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