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Thread: Wet Bar Outlets

  1. #31
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Homeownerinburb View Post
    So, no, I am not afraid to plug in "MY" freezer, because, see, it is not "MY" freezer.
    But you are afraid to plug someone else freezer into a GFCI.

    Quote Originally Posted by Homeownerinburb View Post
    I am, however, interested in giving my client good service. It is my judgement that it is STUPID to plug a fridge or freezer into a gfi receptacle. I will take it up with my local code board, although they only have authority over 110 thousand people.
    Let me see if I understand this, you are saying that you have no problem in making your freezer safe for you and your family but it would not be good service to do the same for someone who you are taking money from.

    Quote Originally Posted by Homeownerinburb View Post
    One other question: how am I to be sure that I am in compliance with the jurisdiction's rules if I do not ask the inspectors when I am in doubt?
    Maybe a little studying of the code

  2. #32
    DIY Senior Member houptee's Avatar
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  3. #33
    DIY Senior Member houptee's Avatar
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    AFCI Code requirements 2011 and 2014 with nice diagrams
    http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/Secti...17694F5C7315A6

  4. #34
    DIY Senior Member Reach4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedy Petey View Post
    You can disagree all you want, code is code.
    So you are assuming any appliance will trip an AFCI "every time"?

    And you would "never" put a fridge on GFI??? What other codes do you ignore?
    In a garage, or within 6' of a wet bar sink, YES, a fridge receptacle would need GFI protection. Period.
    Would you put a basement sump pump on a GFI?

  5. #35
    DIY Senior Member Homeownerinburb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwelectric View Post
    But you are afraid to plug someone else freezer into a GFCI.

    Let me see if I understand this, you are saying that you have no problem in making your freezer safe for you and your family but it would not be good service to do the same for someone who you are taking money from.

    Maybe a little studying of the code
    Let me see if I have THIS straight? You want to insultingly put words in my mouth?

    I ask again: how am I to know if my locality, of which I have about a dozen that I do business in, has adopted one part of the code or another without going and asking the inspector?

    Try answering the questions asked, not insulting strawman questions that will help you make your point.

  6. #36
    DIY Junior Member Al G.'s Avatar
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    I asked my inspector what he wants to see. He said the wine cooler under the counter does not require GFI protection since the receptacle will not be accessible. He said the same thing about the microwave that's going in a wall cabinet. He said that meets the current code in my jurisdiction. Neither of them have to be on dedicated circuits. I'll probably put the microwave on its own circuit just due to the load.

  7. #37
    DIY Senior Member Homeownerinburb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al G. View Post
    I asked my inspector what he wants to see. He said the wine cooler under the counter does not require GFI protection since the receptacle will not be accessible. He said the same thing about the microwave that's going in a wall cabinet. He said that meets the current code in my jurisdiction. Neither of them have to be on dedicated circuits. I'll probably put the microwave on its own circuit just due to the load.
    Good to know. If it is not a lot of cost or work, it is well worth it to give the microwave its own circuit. Full sized ones can easily pull 15 amps at full whack.

  8. #38
    Licensed Electrical Contractor Speedy Petey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reach4 View Post
    Would you put a basement sump pump on a GFI?
    If code required it, absolutely. In fact in my own home it is that way.
    Answers based on the 2008 & 2011 NEC. If you're on the '14 already I feel sorry for you.

  9. #39
    DIY Senior Member Vegas_sparky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al G. View Post
    I asked my inspector what he wants to see. He said the wine cooler under the counter does not require GFI protection since the receptacle will not be accessible. He said the same thing about the microwave that's going in a wall cabinet. He said that meets the current code in my jurisdiction. Neither of them have to be on dedicated circuits. I'll probably put the microwave on its own circuit just due to the load.
    I would put the micro on a dedicated circuit. I'd also install GFI recepticles for the wine cooler and microwave because they are so close to the sink. I wonder what your inspector is thinking?

    Today's GFI technology is very reliable. I'd rather reset a GFI and replace a defective appliance, than experience that disturbing tingling feeling while rinsing out a glass, and opening the fridge.

  10. #40
    DIY Senior Member Homeownerinburb's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Vegas_sparky;405747Today's GFI technology is very reliable. I'd rather reset a GFI and replace a defective appliance, than experience that disturbing tingling feeling while rinsing out a glass, and opening the fridge.[/QUOTE]

    As opposed to modern refrigerators and microwaves that regularly leak current?

    Just ribbing you.

  11. #41
    DIY Senior Member Reach4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Homeownerinburb View Post
    As opposed to modern refrigerators and microwaves that regularly leak current?

    Just ribbing you.
    Why would a modern refrigerator be more immune to leaking current than one from 50 years ago?

    I can't get over the thought of a sump pump that silently shuts off due to a 5ma underwater leak. I see the need of a GF alarm rather that a GFI. An independent water level alarm makes sense, but cutting off the power to a sump pump does not. I see a flooded basement as being much worse than a spoiled set of food in a freezer. Maybe GFCIs should have loud trip alarms built in.

    Maybe there will be a market for 240 VAC sump pumps if that gets around code hysteria while staying within literal code requirements.

  12. #42
    DIY Senior Member Homeownerinburb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reach4 View Post
    Maybe GFCIs should have loud trip alarms built in.
    I would be very surprised if such a thing did not exist. And if it does not, doubtless such a thing would readily be cobbled together.

    But that won't do you a lick of good if you are out of the house and away for weeks when the gfci tips and shuts off power to your fridge or sumppump.

  13. #43
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    open this link for more information
    http://www.legrand.us/aboutus/press-...rm%20gfci.aspx

  14. #44
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    When discussing AFCI and GFCI and the reasons for not installing them I hear a lot of
    “WHAT IF”
    “WHAT IF” the GFCI trips and the meat defrost?
    “WHAT IF” we go on vacation and the device trips?
    “WHAT IF” a solar flare hits earth and shut down all the grids?
    “WHAT IF” a storm knocks out the power grid?
    “WHAT IF” we forgot to pay our bill and the power gets shut off?
    “WHAT IF” all the current leaks out and floods the basement with electrons?
    “WHAT IF” a bull frog carried a 38 would snakes mess with him?

    I got one I would like to throw out there. “WHAT IF” we installed a compliant installation and quit this what ifing? The world would be a safer place don’t you think.

    My 20 year old chest type freezer in the basement is plugged into a GFCI and guess what, it has never tripped. My refrigerator is plugged into a receptacle that is GFCI protected and guess what, it has never tripped. My Koi pond has two pumps that circulate the water that are plugged into GFCI and once again they have never tripped.

    Some good advice when asking an inspector what they want to see when doing an inspection. Whatever they say get it in writing or you can bet your bottom dollar they will say they didn’t say anything.
    The NEC is very clear that when one waivers from the mandated rules that “special permission” is required and it is only special permission when it is in writing.

    Special Permission. The written consent of the authority having jurisdiction.

    As an electrical inspector I will only answer if something is in compliance with the NEC. I will not give special permission for anything that is not in compliance. If the question is formed in a manner that would require me to design the installation my only answer is, “do it in a code compliant manner.”
    I will never put myself into a situation where the contractor can say, “that is how he said for me to do it” simply because of the liability involved and I know of no seasoned inspector that would do anything different.

    An example would be a contractor asking if a wet bar refrigerator would require a GFCI that is within 6 feet of the sink. Answer- Yes

    Another way that this question could be asked would be, would it be alright to not GFCI protect the refrigerator if it is in the cabinet and blocking the receptacle. Answer- install the device in a code compliant manner and when I did the inspection and it was not compliant then we get a reinspection fee.

  15. #45
    Consultant cwhyu2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwelectric View Post
    open this link for more information
    http://www.legrand.us/aboutus/press-...rm%20gfci.aspx
    That was interesting.

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