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Thread: Wet Bar Outlets

  1. #16
    Licensed Electrical Contractor Speedy Petey's Avatar
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    First off, keep in mind that even though it is 2014, and the 2014 NEC is out, only a select few areas will actually adopt it immediately.
    Also, this is a wet bar, so quoting all these kitchen codes is meaningless.

    This refer would not have to be dedicated, but it would need to be GFI protected. Sorry to those who choose to ignore the codes for new equipment, but it DOES require GFI. Too bad if you lose food.

  2. #17
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
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    Not sure if it matters, but it is going into a basement as opposed to another place in the house.
    Jim DeBruycker
    Important note - I'm not a pro
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer; Schluter 2.5-day Workshop Completed 2013, 2014

  3. #18
    DIY Senior Member Vegas_sparky's Avatar
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    I just reread JWs post and baths and garages are exempt from the AFI rule. Is that because hair dryers and angle grinders will trip them?

  4. #19
    DIY Senior Member Vegas_sparky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jadnashua View Post
    Not sure if it matters, but it is going into a basement as opposed to another place in the house.
    Jim, since it sounds like the basement is finished, the fact that its a basement should be mute. The proximity of the sink is a more important variable.

  5. #20
    Consultant cwhyu2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedy Petey View Post
    First off, keep in mind that even though it is 2014, and the 2014 NEC is out, only a select few areas will actually adopt it immediately.
    Also, this is a wet bar, so quoting all these kitchen codes is meaningless.

    This refer would not have to be dedicated, but it would need to be GFI protected. Sorry to those who choose to ignore the codes for new equipment, but it DOES require GFI. Too bad if you lose food.
    I disagree, why would you need a Fridge GFCI protected never would do that and AFCI in a kitchen every time the motor on any appliance is going to spark and that would trip the AFCI.

  6. #21
    Licensed Electrical Contractor Speedy Petey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cwhyu2 View Post
    I disagree, why would you need a Fridge GFCI protected never would do that and AFCI in a kitchen every time the motor on any appliance is going to spark and that would trip the AFCI.
    You can disagree all you want, code is code.
    So you are assuming any appliance will trip an AFCI "every time"?

    And you would "never" put a fridge on GFI??? What other codes do you ignore?
    In a garage, or within 6' of a wet bar sink, YES, a fridge receptacle would need GFI protection. Period.

  7. #22
    DIY Junior Member Al G.'s Avatar
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    Thanks for all the responses. I didn't know what I thought was a simple question would generate so much discussion. I think I'll ask my local inspector what he requires when I go for the permit.

    And yes, it is a finished basement.

  8. #23
    DIY Senior Member Homeownerinburb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas_sparky View Post
    the fact that its a basement should be mute.
    The word you are looking for is "moot", not "mute".

  9. #24
    DIY Senior Member Homeownerinburb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedy Petey View Post
    In a garage, or within 6' of a wet bar sink, YES, a fridge receptacle would need GFI protection. Period.
    Have you got a citation on that? The least I saw, if the receptacle is behind the fridge, is need not be gfi protected.

  10. #25
    DIY Senior Member Homeownerinburb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedy Petey View Post
    You can disagree all you want, code is code.
    So you are assuming any appliance will trip an AFCI "every time"?

    And you would "never" put a fridge on GFI??? What other codes do you ignore?
    In a garage, or within 6' of a wet bar sink, YES, a fridge receptacle would need GFI protection. Period.
    I finally got across town to the nearest building and safety office for LA this morning. You are right and you are wrong.

    The guy I spoke to acknowledged that any outlet within 6' of a sink, including under a counter or behind a fridge, is SUPPOSED to be gfi protected.

    And he said that if I were to make a cogent argument to my inspector (his colleagues) that a receptacle is behind a fridge and is not going to be accessed for counter top appliances, and thus should be ignored, that the inspector will shrug and agree.

    I'll certainly go to the trouble of putting in a single outlet, not a duplex, behind the fridge, to nudge the inspector to see it my way.

    GFI for the garbage disposal? He wants for me to put it in.

    As for ArcFault for kitchens and bathroom outlets, he also acknowledges that the code is going there. But he told me to limit it to the bed rooms and living room.

    I predict a hazy period and expect to visit the offices EVERY TIME I work up a bid, to assure that I am not going to be forced to install something expensive that I have not included in the bid.

  11. #26
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    A couple of things to keep in mind when doing electrical installations are that questions asked to an inspector in no way guarantees that you are going to make a code compliant installation. The only way to make a code compliant installation is to adhere to the rules adopted in your area. An inspector might say one thing but enforce another,

    If I had an appliance that I was afraid to have on either an arc fault or ground fault it would be time to get rid of the appliance. Should the GFCI in my basement trip and defrost the meat contained within I would praise God that it was the meat that was lost and not a human life.

    The requirement that a GFCI device to be readily accessible is more than enough to allow anyone to see if the device has tripped. The dedicated circuit or an appliance in front of the receptacle negates the requirement for GFCI went out a couple of code cycles ago.

    If you are afraid to plug your freezer into a GFCI protected receptacle the simple solution is to just not have a freezer,

  12. #27
    DIY Senior Member Homeownerinburb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwelectric View Post
    If you are afraid to plug your freezer into a GFCI protected receptacle the simple solution is to just not have a freezer,
    Might we avoid being simplistic about it? This is not MY freezer. It is not even a freezer we are discussing.

    This is the property of the CLIENT. The installation is for the benefit of the CLIENT, not me. It is not MY food that will be spoiled if the gfi trips. It is not even MY fridge that will be made useless by housing rotting food for weeks on end. You cannot get that stench out.

    All that happens to the CLIENT. Not to ME.

    So, no, I am not afraid to plug in "MY" freezer, because, see, it is not "MY" freezer.

    I am, however, interested in giving my client good service. It is my judgement that it is STUPID to plug a fridge or freezer into a gfi receptacle. I will take it up with my local code board, although they only have authority over 110 thousand people.

    And JW, let me save you the effort: you are going to lecture me as how it is best service to do EVERYTHING to code.

    Everybody is entitled to an opinion, I suppose.

    But as long as the inspector is going to let me plug the fridge into other than a gfi or arcfault circuit, I'm doing it. Nobody is going to plug a toaster into that receptacle and then drop it into the sink.

    And how, pray tell, does a dedicated circuit negate the requirement that the gfi be visible? It could be a breaker in the box.

    One other question: how am I to be sure that I am in compliance with the jurisdiction's rules if I do not ask the inspectors when I am in doubt?

    Los Angeles County has 80 cities. The County regulates code in unincorporated areas in the county. Each of those cities has its own enforcement. That is 81 authorities that I might need to understand. And each expects me to buy a business license to do business there.

    Oddly, the City of Los Agneles gives the business license away for free, under 300,000 gross receipts. The smaller cities that I tend to work in want about $100 each per year.
    Last edited by Homeownerinburb; 01-14-2014 at 03:55 PM.

  13. #28
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
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    While many people here may understand what a GFCI does, just for clarity and maybe education of those that don't:

    A GFCI compares the power going out verses the power going back on the neutral lead. When everything is working properly, those two currents are the same. The current doesn't magically dissipate inside of the appliance, it needs a path, or it's just like an open switch...nothing happens.

    The safety issue becomes, what if some of that current does NOT go back to the source (they call it a closed circuit for a reason) - that means that some of it is going along a different path. At some point, the neutral and grounds are tied together. So, to get back along the neutral to the source, the alternate path is typically through ground. If a person happens to be in series with that stray current, he may be harmed. It doesn't take much...we're talking maybe as little as 10's of milliamps (thousandth's of an amp) and the person's heart may be disrupted. So, the GFCI measures the current, and looks for a difference between what was going in verses what's going out. IF they are not the same, within it's preset threshold (I think that is in the area of 5-6ma), it trips, removing power from the affected device - IOW, it shuts down, before there's enough or a long enough amount of current 'straying' to ground to hurt someone, at least enough to kill them.

    Modern products are required to not have stray currents to ground. If they eventually do develop that problem, they should either be repaired or replaced. A funeral or hospital stay is lots more expensive than whatever may spoil in a freezer.
    Jim DeBruycker
    Important note - I'm not a pro
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer; Schluter 2.5-day Workshop Completed 2013, 2014

  14. #29
    Licensed Electrical Contractor Speedy Petey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Homeownerinburb View Post
    I finally got across town to the nearest building and safety office for LA this morning. You are right and you are wrong.

    The guy I spoke to acknowledged that any outlet within 6' of a sink, including under a counter or behind a fridge, is SUPPOSED to be gfi protected.

    And he said that if I were to make a cogent argument to my inspector (his colleagues) that a receptacle is behind a fridge and is not going to be accessed for counter top appliances, and thus should be ignored, that the inspector will shrug and agree.
    So how am I wrong? If your inspector will let it go that does not change the code requirement.


    Quote Originally Posted by Homeownerinburb View Post
    GFI for the garbage disposal? He wants for me to put it in.
    What's funny is that in a kitchen it's not required, but at a wet bar sink it would be. Kitchens do not have the 6' rule, only a counter top rule.

    I have not bothered myself to read up on the '14 NEC changes. All this new AFCI bullsh*t annoys me and I don't want to deal with it until I am forced to.

  15. #30
    DIY Senior Member Homeownerinburb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedy Petey View Post
    So how am I wrong? If your inspector will let it go that does not change the code requirement.


    What's funny is that in a kitchen it's not required, but at a wet bar sink it would be. Kitchens do not have the 6' rule, only a counter top rule.

    I have not bothered myself to read up on the '14 NEC changes. All this new AFCI bullsh*t annoys me and I don't want to deal with it until I am forced to.
    OK, so you are not wrong. Lucky me my building department is not going to bust my chops about the fridge. And I think they would let the wine chiller slide as well, although wine is not as vulnerable to a chiller going out as food in a fridge is.

    I absolutely agree with you about the arcfaults. I can readily see a situation in the near term where for all practical purposes, a repanel will cause a full rewire. Customers are going to just love that.

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