(206) 949-5683, Top Rated Plumber, Seattle
Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 65

Thread: Gas water heater bonding

  1. #16
    DIY Senior Member bluebinky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Santa Clara, CA
    Posts
    354

    Default

    I don't have the exact references handy, so from memory...

    - All metal piping (that might become accidentally energized) must be bonded. So, if you can out argue the AHJ, then it is not required
    - Fixtures do not count as electrically bonding hot and cold supplies together (at least partially because they can be disconnected during service).
    - A water heater could count, but does not because it can be disconnected for service.
    - Bonding hot and cold at the water heater is a "tradition", at least in many locales.
    - I believe I've seen somewhere that a gas furnace connection to a gas line might meet the bonding requirement, as long as the branch circuit grounding conductor was large enough...
    - Metal piping going into the ground on the inlet side of a gas meter must not be bonded.

    I agree with HJ, that safety is not the only reason for bonding hot & cold...
    Last edited by bluebinky; 01-10-2014 at 10:19 PM.

  2. #17
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    2,523

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bluebinky View Post
    I don't have the exact references handy, so from memory...
    As a code enforcement official I MUST have the exact code section to enforce anything. There is no code reference to enforce the bonding of the hot to cold and as I pointed out in my last post to do so violates 250.104(A)(1)

    Quote Originally Posted by bluebinky View Post
    - All metal piping (that might become accidentally energized) must be bonded. So, if you can out argue the AHJ, then it is not required
    I am the code enforcement official in the city that I work and will turn you down using 250.104(A)(1) every time I see the hot bonded to the cold
    Quote Originally Posted by bluebinky View Post
    - Fixtures do not count as electrically bonding hot and cold supplies together (at least partially because they can be disconnected during service).
    So the bond you install is welded in place so it can’t be removed?
    Quote Originally Posted by bluebinky View Post
    - A water heater could count, but does not because it can be disconnected for service.
    So replacing a water heater means that the bonding jumper would not be removed in the process?
    Quote Originally Posted by bluebinky View Post
    - Bonding hot and cold at the water heater is a "tradition", at least in many locales.
    Tradition is not enforceable but the code is what is enforced. If tradition is a violation of the adopted electrical code then tradition will be turned down on any job that I inspect.
    Quote Originally Posted by bluebinky View Post
    - I believe I've seen somewhere that a gas furnace connection to a gas line might meet the bonding requirement, as long as the branch circuit grounding conductor was large enough...
    I am not allowed to turn down or pass a job based on what I believe I have saw somewhere I must use code references. The equipment grounding conductor can be used to bond gas, Potable, waste, gray, or even air lines when the metal piping system is not a complete metal system as outlined in 250.104(B)
    Quote Originally Posted by bluebinky View Post
    - Metal piping going into the ground on the inlet side of a gas meter must not be bonded.
    Yes it can, just can’t use the gas line as an electrode.

    Quote Originally Posted by bluebinky View Post
    I agree with HJ, that safety is not the only reason for bonding hot & cold...
    Safety of persons and equipment is the only reason to bond or comply with any code section. The NEC is a minimum safety standard and to do anything less than what it requires is a safety issue. 250.104(A)(1) is very clear where a metal water pipe bonding jumper is to land and hot to cold is not found there therefore to do so is a safety issue.

    Give it a little thought, the plumber uses copper to stub down from the plumbing fixtures but then installs non-metallic pipes between these stubs. Are those stubs required to be bonded together? No. then how does a water heater somehow mandate this bond? It doesn’t. As you pointed out it is just tradition from years gone by. Back before the introduction of non-metallic plumbing pipes there was a requirement in the NEC (1971 and early cycles) to make and keep metal piping systems electrically continuous but with the introduction of non-metallic piping systems this was removed from the NEC as the NEC does not mandate the installation of piping systems. This tradition is a holdover from those days simply because electricians are too lazy to study the book that mandates the installation of systems. They prefer to look at pictures published in some magazine and make their installations look like the picture. As the inspector on the job I must use the NEC for enforcement and am not allowed to use pictures I find including those found in the NEC Handbook.

  3. #18
    DIY Senior Member Reach4's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    IL
    Posts
    1,252

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jwelectric View Post
    Here is the code section in question in its fullest contenet.

    250.104 Bonding of Piping Systems and Exposed Structural Steel.
    (A) Metal Water Piping. The metal water piping system shall be bonded as required in (A)(1), (A)(2), or (A)(3) of this section. The bonding jumper(s) shall be installed in accordance with 250.64(A), (B), and (E). The points of attachment of the bonding jumper(s) shall be accessible.
    I am not familiar with plumbing code. However the use of the word The would seem to me to imply they are referring to the required bonding. To interpret that no other conductors, not being used for the bonding requirement, can pass between two pipes seems surprising, and I would think if that was the intention of the code, they would have said so explicitly.

    I am confident that you would not have a problem with a conductive copper pipe bypass valve across the water heater, yet that would also connect the lines electrically. The water heater itself will normally connect these electrically. So can you think of any reason why the code writers would have intended your interpretation?

    To say that no wires can be added, in addition to those required by code, to solve a galvanic corrosion or a radio frequency interference problem seems oppressive.

  4. #19
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    2,523

    Default

    Galvanic corrosion is the result of two dissimilar metals coming into contact with each other with a DC current applied. Where is this taking place with the water heater? If you say in the connections to the water heater then I will say that the brass union that would be used would make for continuity.
    If you say that flex is being used to connect to the water heater I am going to say that the flex will do either one of two things. One it will maintain continuity or two it will not. If the flex maintains continuity then why do anything more? If the flexible connection is not metallic then where are the different metals coming from?

    You are correct that the word THE means the metal water piping and the word the is singular meaning the water pipe not those water pipes. Is it possible to have more than one metal water piping systems in a house? Yes, there is the potable water system, waste water system, gray water system, and let’s not leave out irrigation which could be part of the potable or gray water systems. I have even saw metal water piping systems installed for heat. Each of these metal water piping systems will require that THE bonding conductor is installed.

    Instead of reading articles in magazines and looking at the picture they have there I go straight to the horse’s mouth when I am doing research on these debatable subjects. Here is a proposal that has the panel statement on it, yes the code making panel charged with voting on the proposals or one could say the words of those charged with writing the code. What is something that any electrician can do to see if a metal piping system of any type is made completely from metal? Would a continuity test do the job?

    5-236 Log #2432 NEC-P05 Final Action: Reject
    (250.104(A)(1))
    __________________________________________________ __________
    Submitter: Robert P. McGann, City of Cambridge
    Recommendation: Revise text to read as follows:
    Metal water piping system(s) that is likely to be energized, installed in or attached to a building or structure shall be bonded.
    Substantiation: With much expanded use of plastic water piping system(s) isolating section of metal piping systems. This type of installation leaves contractors and inspectors what is required to be bonded.
    Panel Meeting Action: Reject
    Panel Statement: The requirements of 250.104(A) apply to complete metallic water piping systems. Where there is no complete metallic water piping system, then the requirements of 250.104(B) would apply for those portions of isolated metal water piping system likely to become energized.
    Number Eligible to Vote: 15
    Ballot Results: Affirmative: 15

    See page 220 on this link.
    http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/Abo...NEC2008ROP.pdf

    Now you can see that it is not only my opinion but the opinion of those who write the codes that the bonding of hot to cold is not required by the NEC but any bonding jumper installed is required to land at one or the other places outlined in 250.104(A)(1) even if the claim of galvanic corrosion is the purpose of the bond.

  5. #20
    DIY Senior Member bluebinky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Santa Clara, CA
    Posts
    354

    Default

    I just re-read NEC 250.10x in its entirety. All metallic piping/conduits/raceways must be bonded, unless "unlikely" to become energized. In my limited experience "likely" always wins over "unlikely". I do not yet see bonding being "forbidden" anywhere in the code nor JW's quotes.

    As for bonding jumpers ... hmm. 250.98 and 250.98 mention "electrically continuous" and 250.96.98 and 250.64E mention jumpers. 250.64E mentions "at both ends" of a raceway. So far, I see nothing about bonding jumpers with respect to water piping (like I said, I believe it is tradition, except in Maine). JW, are you saying jumpers are OK for say maintaining a continuous EGC when using EMT around a plastic box, but not OK for making supply plumbing electrically continuous for bonding (safety)? If so, I could not out argue that using the NEC...

    On my latest remodel, I ran a #6 from the panel ground to the gas water heater cold inlet continuing on to the hot side without splice. This is in addition to the required grounding electrodes. JW, would you veto that?

    250.104B covers the case of bonding the gas piping to the EGC of the gas furnace circuit.

    A gas water heater and/or plumbing fixture can be replaced without an electrical permit. Removing a hot to cold bonding jumper would be outside the scope of work, and thus illegal...

    Remember the houses that burned in Seattle a while back due to a utility ground fault? Why would anyone want a low impedance connection from an underground gas pipe to the utility neutral...?

  6. #21
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    2,523

    Default

    [
    Quote Originally Posted by bluebinky View Post
    I just re-read NEC 250.10x in its entirety. All metallic piping/conduits/raceways must be bonded, unless "unlikely" to become energized. In my limited experience "likely" always wins over "unlikely". I do not yet see bonding being "forbidden" anywhere in the code nor JW's quotes.
    What is happening when you read 250.104(A)(1) is you are reading into it what you want it to say instead of reading it for what it says. 250.104(A)(1) is addressing metal water pipes only.

    Quote Originally Posted by bluebinky View Post
    As for bonding jumpers ... hmm. 250.98 and 250.98 mention "electrically continuous"
    “Expansion fittings and telescoping sections of metal raceways” how does this apply to metal water pipes. If we are going to discuss metal water pipes let’s please stay on subject and not try to inject conduit into the picture
    [QUOTE=bluebinky;405102]and 250.96.98 and 250.64E mention jumpers. 250.64E mentions "at both ends" of a raceway. [quote] .64(E) is addressing the grounding electrode conductor installed in a metal raceway again not addressing a metal water pipe.

    Quote Originally Posted by bluebinky View Post
    So far, I see nothing about bonding jumpers with respect to water piping (like I said, I believe it is tradition, except in Maine). JW, are you saying jumpers are OK for say maintaining a continuous EGC when using EMT around a plastic box, but not OK for making supply plumbing electrically continuous for bonding (safety)? If so, I could not out argue that using the NEC...
    In some cases such as the metal raceway used with a non-metallic box bonding is required but at a water heater there is no requirement to install a bonding jumper nor is there a requirement to make and keep metal water pipes electrically continuous. Many years ago it was a requirement that all metal pipes be made electrically continuous but the Code Making Panel realized that the NEC had no power to the installation of piping systems therefore the requirement was removed.



    Quote Originally Posted by bluebinky View Post
    On my latest remodel, I ran a #6 from the panel ground to the gas water heater cold inlet continuing on to the hot side without splice. This is in addition to the required grounding electrodes. JW, would you veto that?
    YES! Should for any reason your little heart wants to come up with for bonding the two together then the bonding jumper you install MUST land at one of the four places outlined in 250.104(A)(1). I would also be looking to see if the service was 150 amps or smaller being you used a #6

    Quote Originally Posted by bluebinky View Post
    250.104B covers the case of bonding the gas piping to the EGC of the gas furnace circuit.
    Again this is selective reading instead of reading what is printed. Look closely to the first few words of that section, “Where installed in or attached to a building or structure, a metal piping system(s), including gas piping,” I think that gas is included and not the only thing being talked about in 250.104(B).
    250.104(A)(1) is addressing any pipe that has water in it and is already electrically continuous throughout its entire system, the reason why in the proposal the CMP used the word COMPLETE and 250.104(B) address the installation of metal piping systems that are not complete including gas.

    Quote Originally Posted by bluebinky View Post
    A gas water heater and/or plumbing fixture can be replaced without an electrical permit. Removing a hot to cold bonding jumper would be outside the scope of work, and thus illegal...
    And an electrical water heater can be replaced with a gas without an electrical permit. A busted pipe can be repaired without an electrical permit and the plumbing code will allow a metal pipe to be repaired with a non-metallic pipe and just what happened to all that worthless bonding when this happens.

    Quote Originally Posted by bluebinky View Post
    Remember the houses that burned in Seattle a while back due to a utility ground fault? Why would anyone want a low impedance connection from an underground gas pipe to the utility neutral...?
    No my friend I do not keep up with the news in Seattle but I do watch the local news in Asheboro North Carolina including the weather. The requirement for bonding gas pipes is to remove and electrical current imposed upon it due to lightning and surges.

    It might also help if we understand just what is meant by “likely to become energized” used in Article 250 of the NEC. What will cause something likely to become energized? The simple answer is it will have an electrical appliance attached to it just like metal conduit is likely to become energized due to the conductors inside the raceway.
    Is a NM cable installed somewhere in the area of the metal pipe likely to energize it? No more than it is likely to set the wooden framing member that it is stapled to on fire.

    My gas logs are supplied by a 250 gallon tank 300 feet away from the house and are supplied by a ½ inch copper tube. There is no electricity connected to the gas logs and no CSST gas piping used and guess what, no bond is installed either.
    I also have two water heaters that have non-metallic flexible connectors and the copper pipes in the basement are not bonded. Everything in my home is code compliant and very safe.

  7. #22
    DIY Senior Member bluebinky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Santa Clara, CA
    Posts
    354

    Default

    HJ, thanks for the carefully though through replies. It would be interesting if you were my local inspector.

    I do like the interpretation of "likely to become energized". I haven't had the guts to try that one in CA.

    Anyway, while I don't agree with HJ 100%, I really appreciate the opportunity to learn and be challenged. I just wish I had time to properly try to "win" this debate, but I really need to get back to my day job.

  8. #23
    Jack of all trades DonL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Houston, TX
    Posts
    3,644

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bluebinky View Post
    HJ, thanks for the carefully though through replies. It would be interesting if you were my local inspector.

    I do like the interpretation of "likely to become energized". I haven't had the guts to try that one in CA.

    Anyway, while I don't agree with HJ 100%, I really appreciate the opportunity to learn and be challenged. I just wish I had time to properly try to "win" this debate, but I really need to get back to my day job.

    Did You get your wires crossed ?


    Maybe so.
    Theory only works perfect in a vacuum.

    Cyber Security Protection for Windows C:\ > WWW.WinForce.Net

  9. #24
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    2,523

    Default

    The laws of physics that govern current flow clearly state that current flows from its source back to its source. In other words any current on the metal water pipe would have to originate from a source and return to that source.

    Current does not somehow appear and disappear to earth. A bonding conductor from hot to cold does nothing to help protect a water heater from corrosion.

    There is no Win to a debate that is based on tradition verses the adopted codes or electric theory. The facts stand as they are. I have only presented the facts and have used the adopted codes to do so and all anyone else has done in this thread is post speculation and tradition.

  10. #25
    DIY Senior Member bluebinky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Santa Clara, CA
    Posts
    354

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DonL View Post
    Did You get your wires crossed ? Maybe so.
    Maybe, but not really.

    JW seems against bonding hot and cold metal pipes at a water heater, yet at least two places in CA mandate it. If I really wanted to change JW's mind (or be convinced otherwise), I'd probably have to take time off from work -- tempting for the educational value, but...

    For galvanic issues, that would be an even bigger battle.

    A long time ago, bonding hot and cold made the AM radio station on our phone go away

  11. #26
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    2,523

    Default

    [
    Quote Originally Posted by bluebinky View Post
    JW seems against bonding hot and cold metal pipes at a water heater, yet at least two places in CA mandate it.
    I am not against anything that is per the NEC and it is the NEC that mandates the installation of bonding conductors. Nowhere in this state is this silly method used. We are smart enough to know that any shower mixing valve is going to get that job done should it even need doing.

    Quote Originally Posted by bluebinky View Post
    If I really wanted to change JW's mind (or be convinced otherwise), I'd probably have to take time off from work -- tempting for the educational value, but...
    You can rest assured that I am showing the text of the NEC but am hearing nothing but tradition and ole wives tales. Yes there is time involved in any education and I have spent many many hours getting mine and will be spending many more hours in the years to come.

    Quote Originally Posted by bluebinky View Post
    For galvanic issues, that would be an even bigger battle.
    This issue will only take a few minutes of reading. Three things must be present in order to have galvanic corrosion occur, two dissimilar metals and DC current. Should the proper electrolyte be used then the DC current can occur between the two metals.

    When discussing galvanic corrosion in water heaters the issue of the two dissimilar metals, the copper piping and the zinc used in the pipes and tank of a water heater we must know that the current between the copper and the other pipes is what causes this reaction. To bond the copper pipes is doing nothing more than giving more area to the copper and is doing nothing to stop the current between the copper and the zinc in the other pipes as it is the two that is the cathode and anode of the current flow.

    Stick a zinc nail and a copper nail into a potato and connect a single cell light bulb to the nails. This same thing is what is happening between the water heater and the copper pipes. Putting the two in electrical contact by the use of brass unions and the problem is gone but bonding the copper together does nothing to solve galvanic corrosion.

    Quote Originally Posted by bluebinky View Post
    A long time ago, bonding hot and cold made the AM radio station on our phone go away
    These are two completely different electrical systems. Although I will not argue that the coincidental occurrence did not happen you can rest assured that the bonding of the two pipes had nothing to do with it.
    I remember one time long ago when I turned on the kitchen light our security light went out. Don’t want that happening so we use candles and kerosene lights in the kitchen now days.

  12. #27
    DIY Senior Member houptee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Monmouth County, NJ
    Posts
    177

    Default

    A neighbor of mine who has worked for his family electrical business for many years once told me using No-Al-Ox compound was not required or mentioned anywhere in the NEC code but everyone just keeps using it and the inspectors look to see it was applied. He said the new aluminum wire is much better than the old stuff and does not need it. Anyone know if that is true or is it also a tradition thing?

  13. #28
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    2,523

    Default

    [
    Quote Originally Posted by houptee View Post
    A neighbor of mine who has worked for his family electrical business for many years once told me using No-Al-Ox compound was not required or mentioned anywhere in the NEC code but everyone just keeps using it and the inspectors look to see it was applied. He said the new aluminum wire is much better than the old stuff and does not need it. Anyone know if that is true or is it also a tradition thing?
    Your neighbor is correct. In the NEC the use of the junk has restrictions as outlined here.
    110.14 Electrical Connections. Because of different characteristics of dissimilar metals, devices such as pressure terminal or pressure splicing connectors and soldering lugs shall be identified for the material of the conductor and shall be properly installed and used. Conductors of dissimilar metals shall not be intermixed in a terminal or splicing connector where physical contact occurs between dissimilar conductors (such as copper and aluminum, copper and copper-clad aluminum, or aluminum and copper-clad aluminum), unless the device is identified for the purpose and conditions of use. Materials such as solder, fluxes, inhibitors, and compounds, where employed, shall be suitable for the use and shall be of a type that will not adversely affect the conductors, installation, or equipment.

    There is also 110.3(B) which states that if it is used it must be applied according to any instructions,
    (B) Installation and Use. Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.
    If someone wants to take the time to read the instructions when applying this junk one will see that each strand of the conductor has to be brushed and the compound applied to all expose conductor not just dabbed into the terminal. As an inspector when I see it if it has not been properly applied it cost the installer one more inspection fee.
    If the terminal does not require the junk then the installer has the duty of removing the junk from the terminal.

  14. #29
    DIY Senior Member bluebinky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Santa Clara, CA
    Posts
    354

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jwelectric View Post
    I am not against anything that is per the NEC and it is the NEC that mandates the installation of bonding conductors. Nowhere in this state is this silly method used.
    AHA, we did "get our wires crossed". NEC with a few mods applies out here... so we are actually in agreement, sort of.

    Quote Originally Posted by jwelectric View Post
    You can rest assured that I am showing the text of the NEC but am hearing nothing but tradition and ole wives tales.
    I think that's a little harsh. NEC requires hot to cold bonding, but where does it say it has to be at the water heater?

    Quote Originally Posted by jwelectric View Post
    Yes there is time involved in any education and I have spent many many hours getting mine and will be spending many more hours in the years to come.
    True, and obvious in your case. Choosing one's battles doesn't imply laziness, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by jwelectric View Post
    Three things must be present in order to have galvanic corrosion occur, two dissimilar metals and DC current. Should the proper electrolyte be used then the DC current can occur between the two metals.

    When discussing galvanic corrosion in water heaters the issue of the two dissimilar metals, the copper piping and the zinc used in the pipes and tank of a water heater we must know that the current between the copper and the other pipes is what causes this reaction. To bond the copper pipes is doing nothing more than giving more area to the copper and is doing nothing to stop the current between the copper and the zinc in the other pipes as it is the two that is the cathode and anode of the current flow.

    Stick a zinc nail and a copper nail into a potato and connect a single cell light bulb to the nails. This same thing is what is happening between the water heater and the copper pipes. Putting the two in electrical contact by the use of brass unions and the problem is gone but bonding the copper together does nothing to solve galvanic corrosion.
    Oversimplification, but essentially correct. What about a thermocouple or solar cell? -- nothing but dissimilar metals.

    Quote Originally Posted by jwelectric View Post
    These are two completely different electrical systems. Although I will not argue that the coincidental occurrence did not happen you can rest assured that the bonding of the two pipes had nothing to do with it.
    I remember one time long ago when I turned on the kitchen light our security light went out. Don’t want that happening so we use candles and kerosene lights in the kitchen now days.
    No, this was real and repeatable. Just a some bad wiring and dissimilar metals...


    Houptee, as for the No-Al-Ox or whatever, that is not what I meant by "tradition". There was a thread here a while back that quickly changed my mind against the stuff, though.

  15. #30
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    2,523

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bluebinky View Post
    NEC requires hot to cold bonding, but where does it say it has to be at the water heater?
    Where does the NEC make a requirement to bond hot to cold?

Similar Threads

  1. So. Ca. Gas rule no Bonding at the water heater.
    By tom12 in forum Water Heater Forum, Tanks
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 01-07-2013, 09:05 AM
  2. Bonding a new water supply line
    By phughes200 in forum Electrical Forum discussion & Blog
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 02-21-2012, 09:45 PM
  3. Grounding Whirlpool Tub Motor and Heater - Bonding Panel to Electric Water Heater
    By chuck b in forum Electrical Forum discussion & Blog
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 02-06-2012, 09:01 AM
  4. Bonding Water Heater
    By chuck b in forum Electrical Forum discussion & Blog
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 07-01-2011, 06:02 PM
  5. Bonding ground rod to water pipe to nuetral bus
    By Lakee911 in forum Electrical Forum discussion & Blog
    Replies: 47
    Last Post: 02-06-2008, 02:18 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •